Is the Catholic Church as an authority a circular argument? (Edited Title)

[SCALCO]

I’m sure you’re more able to explain this than I am. However, let’s just take a typical issue – salvation outside the RCC. Many individuals within the RCC have explained it in different ways. I’ve had some tell me there’s absolutely no salvation outside of the official membership rolls of the RCC. I’ve had others tell me that all those who believe in Christ’s salvatory work are saved through “invincible ignorance” and/or “baptism of desire”, etc.

If the Church has not clearly defined something, although I am pretty sure it has on the issue of salvation outside the Church, there may be different interpretations. What’s important is that the end result of these different interpretations be in harmony with the other teachings and with each other. In that sense, you do have unity because the end result is the same.

The point is that there are individuals who disagree which are otherwise “good Roman Catholics”. Or are you arguing that every true Roman Catholic actually does fully agree with every other Roman Catholic on every teaching and belief? If so, you’ve got quite the case to prove.

The Church is protected from teaching error. This is how it is able to uphold the truth and where we find the source of unity. If someone knowingly disagrees with the Church, they are moving away from the source and no longer in full unity.

 

[planter654]

Mind giving me a link to the work in question so I can read up more fully before responding to this one?

No, I believe I’m a better interpreter, not than the apostles themselves, but rather their so-called successors who are just as far removed from them (almost 2000 years) as I am. You’re assuming a perfect transition of knowledge from one generation to the next. This simply isn’t humanly possible, and I don’t believe God acted in this manner either. Thus, with each generation, you can lose something in the translation. Thus, I choose to go back to the earliest sources to confirm practices and beliefs, believing that God did not consider as spiritually depraved the early church.

I’m curious as to precisely what you mean regarding “Christocentricity test” and “non-fictional procedure”.

Sure. I just don’t accept it was done through a succession of individuals (with the guidance of the holy spirit) only, and not through the general faith of believers.

Easy there – I don’t claim to be the master of revelation. In fact, God does that. All I believe I’m doing is listening to what he’s saying, and acting accordingly. I don’t doubt that you believe the RCC leadership does that. What I doubt, however, is whether or not the holy spirit actually speaks only to the leadership of the RCC.

It’s subjective…highly subjective.

Your point is taken, but as the term is identical to what was used to describe Peter’s role, it seems then that Peter, as a universal bishop, doesn’t fit.

Peter was an apostle,not a bishop. So were the others that Jesus choose to go out and preach and teach the gospel. We are all called to be apostles or disciples of his word.

God Bless

 

[planter654]

Then why did he bother going to Jerusalem at all?

St Paul was a choosen apostle of Jesus to go and spread the gostles to the Gentles. St Paul was held prisoner in Rome that is where he wrote his gospels.

God Bless

 

[planter654]

Then why did he bother going to Jerusalem at all?

That is the way God wanted it! St. Peter was a choosen apostle to the Jews and St Paul to the Gentles. ST. Paul was killing the Jews all the Jews knew him for that. Now that Jesus choose him he was a changed man and bore witness, confessed to the Jews. ST. Paul bore witness to all in Jerusalem and would be seen also by Peter in Jersusalem as being changed and touched by God. Showing, baring witness to all in Jerusalem, the visible works of the invisible God!

Let us not forget Jesus choose 12 apostles!

God Bless

 

[planter654]

If the Church has not clearly defined something, although I am pretty sure it has on the issue of salvation outside the Church, there may be different interpretations. What’s important is that the end result of these different interpretations be in harmony with the other teachings and with each other. In that sense, you do have unity because the end result is the same.

The Church is protected from teaching error. This is how it is able to uphold the truth and where we find the source of unity. If someone knowingly disagrees with the Church, they are moving away from the source and no longer in full unity.

You say the Church is protected from teaching error. Then you go on and say if someone knowingly disagrees with the Church they are moving away from the source and no longer in full unity. ST. Paul confessed his sins, St.Peter we have seen and heard of his true humility, humbleness being crucified up side down for his Great Love in Faith for Jesus.

Does the church need to openly confess their sins for priest who molested children we are all human. Did the church not know this for generations and other things? Has the Church broken unity with Our Holy Father because of sin? I, including myself am dung on the ground is a mere mortal.

I ask this with no disrespect is the Church in full unity with God who is their full authority? By the promise given by God, we know that Jesus Christ is our HIGH PRIEST FOREVER!

I trust in God only!

 

[planter654]

Only if it is left on the book shelf unread. As soon as someone reads it, human corruptions enter the picture.

I ask in the book of Revelations

Chapter 1 Verse17

Do not be afraid. I am the first and the last, the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever and ever. I HOLD THE KEYS to death and the nether world. Write down, therefore, what you have seen, and what is happening, and what WILL HAPPEN afterwards. This is the SECRET meaning of the seven stars you saw in my right hand, and of the seven gold lampstands: the seven stars are the ANGELS of the SEVEN CHURCHES, and the seven lampstands are the SEVEN CHURCHES.

Is Jesus not saying there are Seven Churches? Then Jesus goes on to name them each church in what he is pleased with and not pleased with.

Jesus has told us that in the end you will need no one to teach you for I will circumzise your hearts and all will know me.

God Bless

 

[SCALCO]

You say the Church is protected from teaching error. Then you go on and say if someone knowingly disagrees with the Church they are moving away from the source and no longer in full unity. ST. Paul confessed his sins, St.Peter we have seen and heard of his true humility, humbleness being crucified up side down for his Great Love in Faith for Jesus.

Does the church need to openly confess their sins for priest who molested children we are all human. Did the church not know this for generations and other things? Has the Church broken unity with Our Holy Father because of sin? I, including myself am dung on the ground is a mere mortal.

I ask this with no disrespect is the Church in full unity with God who is their full authority? By the promise given by God, we know that Jesus Christ is our HIGH PRIEST FOREVER!

I trust in God only!

Everyone is capable of sinning. The Pope goes to confession just like everyone else. This does not mean that the Church has taught a false doctrine. The teaching is still true. We may not live up to it as individuals.

 

[planter654]

Everyone is capable of sinning. The Pope goes to confession just like everyone else. This does not mean that the Church has taught a false doctrine. The teaching is still true. We may not live up to it as individuals.

Jesus Christ is our HIGH PRIEST forever. Yes we are all mere mortals. My point exactly. No one is saying they have taught a false doctrine, only God knows all things. Jesus has been given ALL AUTHORITY in heaven and on earth. We are all called like St. Peter and St. Paul all God’s children to become disciples and teach (tell) everyone about Jesus. All called to obey and spread the gospels.

No one knows all divine truth. For that would be knowing the thoughts of God! But all are called to serve one another. All will be judged! God is a living God.

Why is the Catholic Church “more worried” about its “title” of being the only one who has authority over all humans on earth rather then go out and saving souls? St. Peter and the other apostles all suffered greatly in their works and never ever mentioned when spreading the gospel I am the authority and the only way.

They showed humbleness, humility etc. But obeyed all that Jesus commanded them to do taking nothing with them and all suffered a martyrs death. They did not ever JUDGE for they knew who is the judge of all! But spread the gospels, bore witness and taught all and prayed for all souls. Forgive them for they know not what they do.

God Bless

 

[davidv]

Jesus Christ is our HIGH PRIEST forever. Yes we are all mere mortals. My point exactly. No one is saying they have taught a false doctrine,

Actually, many have - particular on this venue.

only God knows all things. Jesus has been given ALL AUTHORITY in heaven and on earth.

He also shared that authority with His apostles and instituted a visible Church to propogate that authority.

{snip}

Why is the Catholic Church “more worried” about its “title” of being the only one who has authority over all humans on earth rather then go out and saving souls?

This is a false accusation. The Church is not worried about it title. It is worried about the salvation of souls.

 

[SCALCO]

Actually, many have - particular on this venue.

He also shared that authority with His apostles and instituted a visible Church to propogate that authority.

This is a false accusation. The Church is not worried about it title. It is worried about the salvation of souls.

Agreed.

 

[Genesius61]

I noticed that someone addressed the passage referring to the gates of hell not prevailing against His Church. The quote was as follows:

First, the promise of the gates of hell not prevailing should not be taken to mean that the church will never err. In fact, the promise was given regarding the entire church, and yet, from the very first days of the church (or perhaps calling it a congregation is more helpful), we see that there were those who fell into error. Thus, this clearly did not mean that the entirety of the church would be protected from any error at all. This negates the possibility of that teaching referring to infallibility of any sort.

“The promise of the gates of hell not prevailing should NOT BE taken to mean…”

Question: What then SHOULD it be taken to mean?

Secondly, you say that there were those who fell into error. This is obviously a given if you trust the Scriptures. The question would be, how did the early Church determine error. According to the Scriptures the Church was led by the Apostles who were led by the Holy Spirit which Christ sent to them for guidance. In essence, the apostles had the final say of what was error and what wasn’t. Whenever there was a dispute it was ultimately settled by the final word of the apostles. That sounds like infallibility to me.

Btw, ‘infallibility’ only applies to matters of faith and morals; that is, dogma, or essential teachings.

In essence, if you reject a central teaching authority all you are left w/ is anarchy and chaos. Is God a God of chaos? No, God clearly established a structured institution w/ bishops, priests, & deacons (elders) [see Timothy].

 

[agangbern]

Then why did he bother going to Jerusalem at all?

St. Paul said, “I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain.” (Gal 2:2)
Obviously, St. Paul recognized leaders in the early Church, and with them he conferred the correctness of his teachings.

 

[Pons]

I was responding to PC Master earlier. As agangbern says, Paul met with the leaders to confirm if his teaching was correct. There’s a difference between getting permission to do something and getting approval for the things you did or are doing.

 

[mrteachersir]

St. Paul said, “I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain.” (Gal 2:2)
Obviously, St. Paul recognized leaders in the early Church, and with them he conferred the correctness of his teachings.

Well said. He ran his Gospel by the apostles in Jerusalem, to seek their approval. Likewise, in Acts, the apostles sent him to certain places, and again in Galatians, they charged him to care for the poor. They directed him. While the Spirit instructed him where to go, the apostles, or Holy Ones, authorized him.

As I write, I am looking at a map of Paul’s missionary voyages (taken from Scripture). He appears to have traveled to the same cities in the same regions, much like a modern day Bishop would (at least one who believes in his role as chief teacher and Eucharistic celebrant in the local Church, anyway). His letters reflect some of the same pastoral natures of the pastoral letters of today’s Bishops (with just a tad more orthodoxy than some of today’s bishops).

 

[planter654]

Actually, many have - particular on this venue.

He also shared that authority with His apostles and instituted a visible Church to propogate that authority.

This is a false accusation. The Church is not worried about it title. It is worried about the salvation of souls.

Thereforth Jesus gave that authority to his apostles yes and also the church leaders are also are called to be apostles and obey the command given to them to spread the gospels. We are all called to become disciples and spread the gospels.

If the Church is not worried about its title ( Catholic) then why is the question asked what does it mean to be a Catholic? Should it not be ask what does it mean to become a child of God instead? Why do they looked down upon the Protestant who believe in God and Jesus Christ.

Is it not because they the Catholic Church wants to be the only authority figure over all? Play by my rules or your a heretic? Or they question your faithfulness to God, they judge us? I am very confused over such things as theses? I cannot help wondering and asking Jesus if he is pleased with this. God did not give anyone authority to change his commandments or laws not even Jesus did so. But taught us about God our Heavenly Father.

There is not two Bibles or books there is only ONE BOOK called the Bible. I am the beginning and I am the end. Bible is full of instructions, examples of what happens when we obey God or not obey God. The Blessings and the Curses…“God’s I will”

Blessings given to those who believe, obey and the Curses to those who do not believe or obey his word. God is not a Liar.

If God did not spare some of the angels who are “we to think” we also “will not be spared”? If Moses “was not allowed to see the promise land” because of his offense! What do you think you or I will not be also not punished?

If God said the first earth was destroyed by a flood because of sin and disobedience do you not believe God, when he says this time THE EARTH will be distroyed by “FIRE”! Thanks be to God for he is long patient for our sake!

God Bless
God Bless

 

[planter654]

Well said. He ran his Gospel by the apostles in Jerusalem, to seek their approval. Likewise, in Acts, the apostles sent him to certain places, and again in Galatians, they charged him to care for the poor. They directed him. While the Spirit instructed him where to go, the apostles, or Holy Ones, authorized him.

As I write, I am looking at a map of Paul’s missionary voyages (taken from Scripture). He appears to have traveled to the same cities in the same regions, much like a modern day Bishop would (at least one who believes in his role as chief teacher and Eucharistic celebrant in the local Church, anyway). His letters reflect some of the same pastoral natures of the pastoral letters of today’s Bishops (with just a tad more orthodoxy than some of today’s bishops).

True but St. Paul also corrected St. Peter when it came to the gentles.

God Bless

 

[davidv]

Thereforth Jesus gave that authority to his apostles yes and also the church leaders are also are called to be apostles and obey the command given to them to spread the gospels. We are all called to become disciples and spread the gospels.

If the Church is not worried about its title ( Catholic) then why is the question asked what does it mean to be a Catholic? Should it not be ask what does it mean to become a child of God instead? Why do they looked down upon the Protestant who believe in God and Jesus Christ.

Is it not because they the Catholic Church wants to be the only authority figure over all? Play by my rules or your a heretic? Or they question your faithfulness to God, they judge us? I am very confused over such things as theses? I cannot help wondering and asking Jesus if he is pleased with this. God did not give anyone authority to change his commandments or laws not even Jesus did so. But taught us about God our Heavenly Father.

There is not two Bibles or books there is only ONE BOOK called the Bible. I am the beginning and I am the end. Bible is full of instructions, examples of what happens when we obey God or not obey God. The Blessings and the Curses…“God’s I will”

Blessings given to those who believe, obey and the Curses to those who do not believe or obey his word. God is not a Liar.

If God did not spare some of the angels who are “we to think” we also “will not be spared”? If Moses “was not allowed to see the promise land” because of his offense! What do you think you or I will not be also not punished?

If God said the first earth was destroyed by a flood because of sin and disobedience do you not believe God, when he says this time THE EARTH will be distroyed by “FIRE”! Thanks be to God for he is long patient for our sake!

God Bless
God Bless

Where do you get this view of what the Church is? It isn’t the Catholic Church I belong to.

 

[planter654]

Where do you get this view of what the Church is? It isn’t the Catholic Church I belong to.

Please! then tell me your view of the Catholic Church you belong to. Some of the things I said does it not come from within the Bible?

Thank you God Bless

 

[agangbern]

Book of Revelations: Chapter 3 Verse 18

I AM the first and the last, the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I AM alive forever and ever. “I HOLD THE KEYS” to death and the netherworld.

God Bless

But as regards the KEYS of the kingdom of heaven, this Jesus gave them not to all but to PETER alone. (Mathew 16:19)

 

[agangbern]

True but St. Paul also corrected St. Peter when it came to the gentles.

God Bless

And correcting our brother does not remove from him the KEYS that God may have given to him.