Is the Catholic Church in America racist?

[Ender]

The USCCB, in its just released letter Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship, included this statement:

“violations of human dignity, such as … racism …can never be justified.”

usccb.org/bishops/FCStatement.pdf

So, what is racism? According to the Merriam-Webster on-line dictionary, one definition is “racial prejudice or discrimination.”

What is discrimination? “An instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually.”

What, then, do we call the various offices for African American Catholics? I don’t for a moment challenge the motives behind their creation, but I surely question the wisdom for having them. In a Church that is to have neither Greek nor Jew why do we segregate into black and white? If there is a clearer example of “discriminating categorically rather than individually” than the existence of programs for African American Catholics only, I cannot imagine what it would be.

If the Church wants to eliminate racism I think it would be well for her to stop separating us out according to race.

Ender

 

[johnknoesel]

No the Catholic Church in the US is not racist. These organizations are specifically geared to address needs and concerns for the African American Catholic. Before you open this type of discussion why don’t you read up on the subject. Here is some links.

usccb.org/saac/
nbccongress.org/
inaword.com/

 

[Dale_M]

By your reasoning it would be wrong to treat the elderly and children and teens differently. I think there are good reasons for noticing and responding to the differences between demographic groups. They have different needs and concerns.

 

[pigtown]

I thought this was interesting. There is a Vietnamese Catholic Church near us. There is also a Polish Catholic Church being built nearby. There was an article in our local newspaper in which a Polish priest stated that they did not want Polish Catholics worshipping with American Catholics. Maybe the Church, as a whole, is not racist but there are many people within the Church who are.

 

[johnknoesel]

I thought this was interesting. There is a Vietnamese Catholic Church near us. There is also a Polish Catholic Church being built nearby. There was an article in our local newspaper in which a Polish priest stated that they did not want Polish Catholics worshipping with American Catholics. Maybe the Church, as a whole, is not racist but there are many people within the Church who are.

Those have nothing to with race but with culture and language. Here in Fort Worth we have several parishes dedicated to culture and language this was something that came out of the Vatican 2. The mass in the vernacular is just that the language of the land etc… Well since the US is “melting pot” there you go. As far as the Polish Priest’s comment I will bet that you are taking the one small comment completely out of context. Read the whole article and maybe it will make a little more sense.

 

[pigtown]

I did read the entire article. The priest had come from Poland and made it clear that he did not want Polish Catholics associating with American Catholics. I realize that it’s a cultural thing but it still seems that it would help people who come from other countries to associate more with Americans. My husband is from a different country and is very comfortable around Americans which is as it should be.

 

[Ender]

By your reasoning it would be wrong to treat the elderly and children and teens differently.

If you remember back to the definition of discrimination I provided, it was “discriminating categorically rather than individually”. There are categorical differences between the elderly and teens but I do not believe that there are categorical differences between blacks and whites. Isn’t that exactly what was claimed when society was still segregated: “they” are different than “us”?

I think there are good reasons for noticing and responding to the differences between demographic groups.

This is my point: we should not be segregated because of our differences. How do we justify separating blacks, Hispanics, and whites into different groups when we are taught that the Church is one? The early Church didn’t even differentiate between slave and free; how can we possibly justify differentiating racially and ethnically?

They have different needs and concerns.

Individuals have different needs and concerns, racial groups do not. To believe otherwise is to treat every member of the group the same, the kind of stereotyping that has been so harmful in the past. No one can seriously claim that there are “white concerns”; why are we so comfortable claiming there are “black concerns” that only blacks care about? I consider such a claim wrong when applied to politics; it makes no sense whatever to apply it to Catholics. I cannot even imagine a faith issue about which black Catholics would be concerned that other Catholics would not equally share.

Ender

 

[Texas_Roofer]

discriminating has two means now

Scientific meaning is to determine a difference ( not better or worse) as red verses blue

Legal meaning is to advantage one category over the other, the disadvantage party can sue based on the disadvantage.

The Church as a science based discrimination as in Italian, Czech, and African. The catechism refers to legal style of discrimination

 

[Dale_M]

This is my point: we should not be segregated because of our differences. How do we justify separating blacks, Hispanics, and whites into different groups when we are taught that the Church is one?

And we worship as one. That doesn’t mean the Church shouldn’t have specialized ministries.

No one can seriously claim that there are “white concerns”; why are we so comfortable claiming there are “black concerns” that only blacks care about?

Because whites have largely created mainstream culture. African-Americans represent a minority within that larger mainstream culture and have cultural issues outside of mainstream culture. The same would be true of any immigrant community, if they comprised 12% of the country’s population. The U.S. has done a poor job assimilating blacks since the end of slavery. We have done better in the past 30 years, but we have a ways to go.

I cannot even imagine a faith issue about which black Catholics would be concerned that other Catholics would not equally share.

I couldn’t articulate exactly what those issues might be. But that doesn’t mean I must doubt they exist.

 

[Nino]

The USCCB, in its just released letter Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship, included this statement:

well to be sure in some ways you are right…but the brainwashing has been so intense and succesful that the african catholic bit might just be a stepping stone to …well first that…then later into the main stream! Strange how it was the republican party using Catholic christian ideals that called for a holy war against slavery in america with the protestant south!.after some 600,000 casultys the war was won…yeh sure…the white demoncrate party then invented the KKK and kept the freed blacks from joining the republican party by the use of terror and the hangmans rope…horrible…the wealthy ruling class has so brainwashed and conditioned our african american brothers and sisters they are into lockstep thinking…in religion also…so yes,at first glance it seems wrong but after sober reflection…whatever brings our friends into the true church…even if its a side door so what…amen and amen

 

[johnknoesel]

I did read the entire article. The priest had come from Poland and made it clear that he did not want Polish Catholics associating with American Catholics. I realize that it’s a cultural thing but it still seems that it would help people who come from other countries to associate more with Americans. My husband is from a different country and is very comfortable around Americans which is as it should be.

Well I tell you what, I would do the same thing if I was him so that his polish congregation does not get polluted by the American Liberal Idealism. If you look at the majority of American Catholic you will find that they do not accept all of the teachings of the Church, including Abortion, Birth Control and believe it or not most American catholics do not even believe in the real presence of the Holy Eucharist so I would have to agree with that Polish priest.

Now to the rest of the debate. I do not have a problem with separate churches based upon either language, culture or anything because if that is what they choose to have then the Church does respect that, they do not just say ok all whites go to this church, all black go here, all hispanics go here and so on and so forth. Here in Texas every single parish I have ever been to has at least 1 Spanish Mass is that racism no it is not. We also have a very large Asian population here in DFW so we have Korean Catholic churches, Vietnamese Cathlolic Churches etc… The Cathedral we go to has many creeds, races etc… That is because they choose to go there, we also have a Ukranian Catholic Church for our Ukranian Catholic siblings so there is nothing racist about any of this. The only ones I ever see screaming about racism are a bunch left wing liberal’s who want to find something wrong or bad so they can attack it. Remember the Church is Universal and it has found many ways to minister to all of Her children.

 

[mariyka]

Our Bishop is African-American.

doy.org/

 

[Ridgerunner]

What, then, do we call the various offices for African American Catholics? I don’t for a moment challenge the motives behind their creation, but I surely question the wisdom for having them. In a Church that is to have neither Greek nor Jew why do we segregate into black and white? If there is a clearer example of “discriminating categorically rather than individually” than the existence of programs for African American Catholics only, I cannot imagine what it would be.

If the Church wants to eliminate racism I think it would be well for her to stop separating us out according to race.

Ender

I could see organizations for African American Catholics. Most African Americans are not Catholic because most white slaveowners weren’t. So, they’re a minority within a minority, and I’m sure there are situations that are peculiar to them, alone.

I remember, some years back, when my father gave me some of his father’s memorabilia. Among them was my grandfather’s “traveling card”, something that was popular then. On the card were B of L.E, (his union) K of C, which I understood, and “K of F.M.” I asked my father what that was. He told me it was for the “Knights of Father Malachy” an Irish-only Catholic organization, the sole purpose of which was to encourage sobriety among the Irish, through prayer and mutual support. Alcoholism was a terrible problem among Irish-Americans at the time, including virtually every one of my grandfather’s male relatives; a much bigger problem than it was among Catholics of other ethnic origins. So, it’s hard for me to think African-American Catholics should not have organizations for their own particular concerns. If they feel the need for them, the Church should encourage and support them.

 

[Newbie2]

Maybe the Church, as a whole, is not racist but there are many people within the Church who are.

No doubt. And that doesn’t make the RCC “racist”.

Those have nothing to with race but with culture and language.

Exactly. While African-Americans share a common language with all other Americans, there are some definite cultural differences that need to be respected and cultural concerns that may need attention by the Church.

We are many parts, but are all one body.

 

[Ender]

… I’m sure there are situations that are peculiar to them, alone.

This is the concept I object to the Church continuing to foster: that there is a “them” and an us. For an example of a society that actually practices oneness you should look not at the Catholic Church but at the military. “Situations that are peculiar to ‘them’” create divisions between soldiers that are harmful to morale and to the mission and are not tolerated, let alone celebrated and encouraged. Sad to say it is the military and not the Church that has gone the furthest in eliminating racial divisions.

So, it’s hard for me to think African-American Catholics should not have organizations for their own particular concerns. If they feel the need for them, the Church should encourage and support them.

You conflate political concerns with moral ones. What moral concerns do black Catholics have that white Catholics don’t share?

Newbie2:

there are some definite cultural differences that need to be respected and cultural concerns that may need attention by the Church.

Name one.

Ender

 

[johnknoesel]

This is the concept I object to the Church continuing to foster: that there is a “them” and an us. For an example of a society that actually practices oneness you should look not at the Catholic Church but at the military. “Situations that are peculiar to ‘them’” create divisions between soldiers that are harmful to morale and to the mission and are not tolerated, let alone celebrated and encouraged. Sad to say it is the military and not the Church that has gone the furthest in eliminating racial divisions.
You conflate political concerns with moral ones. What moral concerns do black Catholics have that white Catholics don’t share?Name one.

Ender

I do not see that these organizations as politcal. These are cultural based organizations that do provide some sort of need within that community be they Chinese Catholics, Black Catholics, Polish etc… To get to the core of the Black Catholic organizations I have spoken with several Black Catholics and yes they do need a different type ministry, one being that the largest number of abortions performed in this country is within the Black American Community so it a good mission to minister against that evil. Just by having these different types of ministries is not racial it is a response to concerns and needs that have arisen, especially in this country which does have so many different cultures, languages and traditions. It just so happens that I am part Native American are telling me that the there should not be a separate ministry with the sole mission to minister Native Americans that is absurd that has nothing to do with Racism again it is simply the Churches response to either a need brought up by request or maybe by perception that hey you know what we do have this culture within our Church and maybe we need to make sure that their spiritual needs are being fulfilled. I think you may want to actually look at the history of some of these organizations that are in our Church and see exactly how they came about before you through out the racist blanket over the Church.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

The Church and her members are better than most faiths in this area. It was the protestant traditions that fostered racism across the U.S. at the expense of the immigrant filled Catholic Church from the mid 1800’s to the mid 1900’s.

 

[Newbie2]

Name one what?

 

[Ender]

To get to the core of the Black Catholic organizations I have spoken with several Black Catholics and yes they do need a different type ministry, one being that the largest number of abortions performed in this country is within the Black American Community so it a good mission to minister against that evil.

This suggests that blacks are more concerned about the abortion of black babies than about white ones - and vice versa. Human nature being what it is this is perhaps true but surely it is not true of the Church. Doesn’t an “anti black abortion” ministry for blacks only give the impression that the Church treats abortion differently depending on whose babies are being aborted?

Just by having these different types of ministries is not racial it is a response to concerns and needs that have arisen, especially in this country which does have so many different cultures, languages and traditions.

What does this have to do with the “one” Church? We don’t go to Church to celebrate cultures and traditions, we go to celebrate the mass. I understand the incentives behind these programs, I just find them counterproductive.

are telling me that the there should not be a separate ministry with the sole mission to minister Native Americans

Possibly but not necessarily. There are certain situations that require special attention; I know nothing about the Native American ministry so I won’t comment on it. I do, however, know about the Hispanic and African American ministries and find these, in the main, harmful to achieving the oneness the Church proclaims.

I think you may want to actually look at the history of some of these organizations that are in our Church and see exactly how they came about before you through out the racist blanket over the Church.

Remember, in my first post I said that I ascribed no unjust motives to anyone for the creation of these ethnic ministries. Despite the best of intentions, however, I believe that these activities are harmful and in fact foster the very racist attitudes the Church so strongly opposes.

Ender

 

[Newbie2]

“Oneness” doesn’t mean cookie-cutter, does it?