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chrisb
Guest
Do Byzantine Catholics believe that the Western Church has integrated the fruit of your spirituality?
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Eucharisted
Guest
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
814 From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great diversity which comes from both the variety of God’s gifts and the diversity of those who receive them. Within the unity of the People of God, a multiplicity of peoples and cultures is gathered together. Among the Church’s members, there are different gifts, offices, conditions, and ways of life. “Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions.” The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church’s unity. Yet sin and the burden of its consequences constantly threaten the gift of unity. And so the Apostle has to exhort Christians to “maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.”
814 From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great diversity which comes from both the variety of God’s gifts and the diversity of those who receive them. Within the unity of the People of God, a multiplicity of peoples and cultures is gathered together. Among the Church’s members, there are different gifts, offices, conditions, and ways of life. “Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions.” The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church’s unity. Yet sin and the burden of its consequences constantly threaten the gift of unity. And so the Apostle has to exhort Christians to “maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.”
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Harpazo
Guest
As one who worshiped with Latins first, then Eastern Catholics, then Latins again, I can say (probably not to the degree others have) the Latins have been returning back to customs of the ancient Church which the Easterners have largely preserved. The diaconate has returned to the Latins is one such thing that comes to mind. Recognizing fasting periods (even if it is Fridays in Lent for most Latins) is another. I’m sure others can add to the list.
In Christ,
Andrew
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misterdasher
Guest
I’ve been a practicing member of the Latin Church until recently. For the most part, I’ve only been to parishes in dioceses in the South (U.S.). I’ve been to/assisted at Masses, Adoration, Stations, etc., across the spectrum of fidelity to rubrics, the magisterium, and catholic orthodoxy, in both the Extraordinary and Ordinary forms. From what I’ve seen, the Latin Church in the U.S. is struggling merely to integrate its own spirituality (back?) into its prayer and practice.
Other than the occasional backdrop of an icon behind the stage at a conference or in a Christopher West video, even missionary priests or devout secular priests are more likely to use a talking fish (yes, really) to illustrate a homiletic point than they are to use a monstrance, or the stations of the Cross, or a statue of a saint, or a stained glass window. Perhaps, as the West aided the East after the Iconoclastic disaster more than a millennium ago, so the East can aid the West in the wake of its own iconoclastic implosion.
Other than the occasional backdrop of an icon behind the stage at a conference or in a Christopher West video, even missionary priests or devout secular priests are more likely to use a talking fish (yes, really) to illustrate a homiletic point than they are to use a monstrance, or the stations of the Cross, or a statue of a saint, or a stained glass window. Perhaps, as the West aided the East after the Iconoclastic disaster more than a millennium ago, so the East can aid the West in the wake of its own iconoclastic implosion.
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Ghosty
Guest
I’m a bit confused by this question. Why should the Latin tradition integrate the fruits of Byzantine spirituality any more than the Byzantine tradition should integrate the fruits of the Latin?
Just to be clear, I’m not against sharing and exchange of ideas, I’m just curious as to how this question is meant to be understood.
Peace and God bless!
Just to be clear, I’m not against sharing and exchange of ideas, I’m just curious as to how this question is meant to be understood.
Peace and God bless!
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chrisb
Guest
Grace and Peace,
As Pope John Paul II (The Great) spoke of the East and the West as ‘two-lungs’ I would gather that only in a unity would the devout Catholic be truly healthy. Clearly with the aftermath of Vatican II the Western Tradition and Piety was largely dismantled. Perhaps this was done to ‘make room’ in the Western Church for the East? Your thoughts.
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Ghosty
Guest
I don’t believe the “two-lungs” approach means that the Latin Church is meant to integrate Eastern spirituality, but rather that the Catholic Church as a whole must operate as a body with many spiritualities. The traditions and focuses of the various traditions should remain strong and distinct, not watered down in any way. This doesn’t mean that there won’t be influences back and forth, but that is very different from “integration” as I understand it.
As for the “dismantling” of Western tradition, I don’t think it went as far as you may suppose, and I certainly don’t think it was done to make room for anything but modern nonsense (and I don’t believe it was a mission of the Latin Church, but rather that of some mistaken people in its ranks). The restoration of Western tradition should be focused on bringing back Western piety and theology, not incorporating a Byzantine, or any other Eastern, approach. This means bringing back rosaries and Eucharistic Adoration, not adopting the chokti or the Akathist prayer. I, for one, think the Catholic Church would be much poorer for losing things like Eucharistic Adoration and Thomistic theology.
If the Latin Church were to “integrate” the Eastern traditions, we’d be losing a lung, and gaining nothing as Catholics. This happened in the Eastern Orthodox Communion, and they lost the unique Syriac and Russian traditions as a result (perhaps others, too, but these are the ones I know about); I pray we don’t see anything like that in the Catholic Communion in the future.
Peace and God bless!
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Madaglan
Guest
Every several weeks we receive at my house the [Latin Catholic] diocesan newspaper. In reading this newspaper, one thing I’ve been noticing is a greater prevalence of Byzantine-style icons than what I recall earlier appearing. It’s not only the newspaper, but in postcards and holy cards as well that there seems to be a greater representation than previously of icons.I don’t believe the “two-lungs” approach means that the Latin Church is meant to integrate Eastern spirituality, but rather that the Catholic Church as a whole must operate as a body with many spiritualities. The traditions and focuses of the various traditions should remain strong and distinct, not watered down in any way. This doesn’t mean that there won’t be influences back and forth, but that is very different from “integration” as I understand it.
As for the “dismantling” of Western tradition, I don’t think it went as far as you may suppose, and I certainly don’t think it was done to make room for anything but modern nonsense (and I don’t believe it was a mission of the Latin Church, but rather that of some mistaken people in its ranks). The restoration of Western tradition should be focused on bringing back Western piety and theology, not incorporating a Byzantine, or any other Eastern, approach. This means bringing back rosaries and Eucharistic Adoration, not adopting the chokti or the Akathist prayer. I, for one, think the Catholic Church would be much poorer for losing things like Eucharistic Adoration and Thomistic theology.
If the Latin Church were to “integrate” the Eastern traditions, we’d be losing a lung, and gaining nothing as Catholics. This happened in the Eastern Orthodox Communion, and they lost the unique Syriac and Russian traditions as a result (perhaps others, too, but these are the ones I know about); I pray we don’t see anything like that in the Catholic Communion in the future.
Peace and God bless!
Why do you think this is? Is this an importation of Eastern piety into the Latin Church, or are icons equally part of the Latin tradition?
Is there a need to re-introduce statuary into Latin Catholic churches?
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Ghosty
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Aramis
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The west had an iconographic tradition for some time. The west never banned iconography, but the west also endorsed statuary, while the Byzantine East clearly ended statuary in the east.
In many East European Roman Rite parishes (as in Poland, Hungary, Dalmatia) use a mixture of Icons, quasi-iconographic 2D art, realistic 2D art, statuary, and bas-relief. The Byzantine Rite Christians (EO, Greko-Catholic/Byzantine Catholic) used icons, some quasi-iconographic imagery, and sometimes relief work… mostly icons.
So for the west, Iconography is not really a byzantification, but a spread of a common practice that is authentic to Romano-Slavic praxis, to the wider Romano-American praxis.
Also, the Copts and Ethiopians have an Iconography tradition in use. The Syriac churches used to have an iconography tradition, but some have lost it. It was once universal.
In many East European Roman Rite parishes (as in Poland, Hungary, Dalmatia) use a mixture of Icons, quasi-iconographic 2D art, realistic 2D art, statuary, and bas-relief. The Byzantine Rite Christians (EO, Greko-Catholic/Byzantine Catholic) used icons, some quasi-iconographic imagery, and sometimes relief work… mostly icons.
So for the west, Iconography is not really a byzantification, but a spread of a common practice that is authentic to Romano-Slavic praxis, to the wider Romano-American praxis.
Also, the Copts and Ethiopians have an Iconography tradition in use. The Syriac churches used to have an iconography tradition, but some have lost it. It was once universal.
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Madaglan
Guest
Yes, I’ve seen evidence of this combination of 2d art/icons/statuary, etc. in a Hungarian [American] Catholic church. Very interesting.
It’s the “spread” that I’d like to learn more about, especially of particularly Byzantine-style iconography amongst Latin Catholics in America–i.e. amongst Catholic groups formerly less familiar with Byzantine-style icons.
I observe Byzantine-style icons and then traditional Latin statues and perceive in each a distinct ethos.
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lyc70
Guest
Do concerntrate on this post, I’m willing to lift highly my flag following your thoughts.
http://www.*********.com/img/4713/n09x0302vnsn/clear.gif
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mardukm
Guest
I suspect the “spread” is due to the influence of the Franciscans. I’ve noticed that Franciscans very often have icons in their monasteries - due no doubt to the icon style of the Franciscan cross. From what I’ve heard, it is of Syrian influence, though, not Byzantine.
Blessings
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Madaglan
Guest
The Franciscans, from what I’ve seen, do utilize a wide array of religious art from various cultural backgrounds. Interesting point.
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