Is the Catholic Church italo-centric?

[Nanotwerp]

I searched up Saint Peter’s Basilica, which is a famous site in the Vatican, and noticed something. ALL of the statues and paintings were of Italian origin. Is the catholic church universal ethnicity wise, too?

 

[Joe_5859]

I searched up Saint Peter’s Basilica, which is a famous site in the Vatican, and noticed something. ALL of the statues and paintings were of Italian origin. Is the catholic church universal ethnicity wise, too?

Until relatively recently in Church history, it wasn’t really feasible to import large statues from halfway across the world.

I don’t know enough about the art to really verify whether or not “all” of it is Italian in origin, but even if it were true, what would be the significance of such a fact?

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Not sure in what sense to take the original post, but responding to it straight, remember that Vatican City is in Italy (geographically and culturally speaking). The Pope is the bishop of Rome. So naturally the Vatican will be very Italo-centric. There would be a problem, in my opinion, if it wasn’t. Of course, the Catholic Church and the Vatican are not the same thing.

 

[Basilian]

I have had a problem with this for a few years. The mindset increasingly irritates me: the idea that someone cannot be fully Catholic without visiting Rome, or making a pilgrimage to its basilicas. A local Franciscan community has made it a point of honour to send all its simply-professed brothers to Rome immediately after their novitiate. We are not the Catholic (Universal) Church, but the Italian Church - or perhaps the Romance Church. Culturally-speaking, it’s all about Spanish, French, and Italian.

We can’t really get too frustrated with this, since the Germanic, Scandinavian, and English cultures went Protestant. The Slavic cultures are Orthodox. The French and Spanish were in a mess for hundreds of years during the Islamic invasions. The only strong Catholic cultures that survived for a thousand years were on the Italian peninsula. What do you expect? I’m just a little sick of people thinking that Catholic = Italian.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I have had a problem with this for a few years. The mindset increasingly irritates me: the idea that someone cannot be fully Catholic without visiting Rome, or making a pilgrimage to its basilicas. A local Franciscan community has made it a point of honour to send all its simply-professed brothers to Rome immediately after their novitiate. We are not the Catholic (Universal) Church, but the Italian Church - or perhaps the Romance Church. Culturally-speaking, it’s all about Spanish, French, and Italian.

We can’t really get too frustrated with this, since the Germanic, Scandinavian, and English cultures went Protestant. The Slavic cultures are Orthodox. The French and Spanish were in a mess for hundreds of years during the Islamic invasions. The only strong Catholic cultures that survived for a thousand years were on the Italian peninsula. What do you expect? I’m just a little sick of people thinking that Catholic = Italian.

You are forgetting the Irish, and the Germanic, Baltic, and Slavic Catholic cultures (Austrians, Bavarians, Croatians, Czechs, Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians, etc.)

Ultimately though Romance language cultures are going to be important in the Latin Rite Church, and this is fine. There is a better kind of universality in real local cultures than in a bland, artificial multi-culturalism.

 

[GEddie]

The Catholic Church is a body of human beings.

Human beings are not bilocational bodies, we are locally embodied. Our life, which includes worship, is local in nature.

The Roman Catholic Church is based in Rome, Italy, EC, and as such will always be Italian and European in orientation.

And, although I live in NA, I have no problem with that.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[TK421]

This was a little bit of an emotional obstacle for me; it’s a universal Church and you have like 500 years of consecutive rich Italian guys being Popes. It kind of left a bad taste in my mouth and a small, immature part of me had the urge to go into a flippant “fight the man” rebellion mode, but I don’t think it’s something that was ever overtly intended. It’s just that in those few centuries in between post-Protestantism (when the northern half of Europe went protestant) and postmodernism (when the Church started rapidly becoming cosmopolitan in the past 75 years) it was basically unavoidable that it would be a strongly southern European-based religion. Not that the faith is in of itself in anyway ethnocentric, but that’s just sort of how it played out in history.

Even to this day in my own parish here in the US I’ll notice remarks now and then about the Irish this or the Italian that. I would be lying if I said I didn’t find it mildly obnoxious, but I just let it go. In the early 20th century when the ethnic divides were enormously more relevant, this probably would have been a big pastoral challenge for bringing people in. Since the Vatican is logistically in Italy, I think the Vatican itself will obviously have an Italian flavor to it (how couldn’t it?) but the “southern European” association with the Church is something that’s fading in the past.

If there is going to be a shift in the cultural orientation of the Church it should be (and is) be driven by an actual demographically changing Church, not by just changing it in order to put on a tacky, shallow appearance of inclusion. There are more American, Asian, and African cardinals these days because that’s where the Church is moving.

 

[Ridgerunner]

You are forgetting the Irish, and the Germanic, Baltic, and Slavic Catholic cultures (Austrians, Bavarians, Croatians, Czechs, Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians, etc.)

Ultimately though Romance language cultures are going to be important in the Latin Rite Church, and this is fine. There is a better kind of universality in real local cultures than in a bland, artificial multi-culturalism.

One should also mention Rhinelanders, who are mostly Catholic, and who have built some of the most beautiful Catholic cathedrals and have made some of the most impressive Catholic art anywhere.

I suspect we’ll be seeing more and more out of Africa as time goes on. But when one is in Italy, one should expect a lot of Italian architects, artists, etc. After all, they were nearby when a lot of Church art and architecture were done.

 

[godisgood77]

I think that historically the Church universal has been overly influenced by Italian thinking, culture and ways of being… Fortunately, we have moved more towards a truly universal, less homogeneous Church.

 

[M-Dent]

I think that historically the Church universal has been overly influenced by Italian thinking, culture and ways of being… Fortunately, we have moved more towards a truly universal, less homogeneous Church.

I disagree.

I believe the Church has been historically Christocentric while influenced by European Art and Culture.

 

[Southwell]

First, the Church is Christ centered! Second, it is, after all the Roman Catholic Church! Rome, for better or worse is in Italy, geography tells! For most of the last 2,000 years if you were could read and write, you could read and write Latin!! My grand father learned Latin as a boy in public school! That brings us to how being Italian focused is a good thing;

There was a 19th century pope, I’ve forgotten which one, who, supposedly spoke Latin with a terrible Italian accent! Being pope, his pronunciation was imitated and became the norm! This story may be apocryphal but it explains the good I’m talking about, at least for we English speakers!

An example, we all know this Classical Latin quote;

Veni, vidi, vinci! Ceaser’s famous line, in church Latin it sounds just like it’s spelled, but;

In Classical Latin it’s pronounced;

WENI, WIDI, WINCI!

Sounds more like Elmer Fudd than Julius Caesar to me! A little Italian influence may be a good thing!!!

 

[Joe_5859]

Christianity (as is Judaism) is very much a historical, geographical type of religion. God came down in a certain time and at a certain place to certain people and did certain things.

It makes sense to me that the central hub would therefore necessarily be in a certain geographic locale. It’s not intended to exclude everyone else. But we are fleshy beings. We have to set up shop somewhere. It might as well be where Peter set up shop.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I have had a problem with this for a few years. The mindset increasingly irritates me: the idea that someone cannot be fully Catholic without visiting Rome, or making a pilgrimage to its basilicas. A local Franciscan community has made it a point of honour to send all its simply-professed brothers to Rome immediately after their novitiate. We are not the Catholic (Universal) Church, but the Italian Church - or perhaps the Romance Church. Culturally-speaking, it’s all about Spanish, French, and Italian.

We can’t really get too frustrated with this, since the Germanic, Scandinavian, and English cultures went Protestant. The Slavic cultures are Orthodox. The French and Spanish were in a mess for hundreds of years during the Islamic invasions. The only strong Catholic cultures that survived for a thousand years were on the Italian peninsula. What do you expect? I’m just a little sick of people thinking that Catholic = Italian.

Don’t forget the Eastern Churches all over the world - the Indian Catholic Churches founded by St. Thomas the Apostles - Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankara are Catholic and have their own unique culture. The Latin Church in their part of South India is very small.

 

[PJM]

=Nanotwerp;12110435]I searched up Saint Peter’s Basilica, which is a famous site in the Vatican, and noticed something. ALL of the statues and paintings were of Italian origin. Is the catholic church universal ethnicity wise, too?

No In fact the term 'Catholic" means UNIVERSAL. While the Italians have had GREAT influence, as one would expect with ROME being IN Italy, the last three Popes have NOT been Italian, and I see no reason for this recent trend to change. Unless OF COURSE God Chooses a new Italian Pontiff?

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[HB11]

:thumbsup:Thank you , great points in a gentle reply.

No In fact the term 'Catholic" means UNIVERSAL. While the Italians have had GREAT influence, as one would expect with ROME being IN Italy, the last three Popes have NOT been Italian, and I see no reason for this recent trend to change. Unless OF COURSE God Chooses a new Italian Pontiff?

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[TimothyH]

Italians were Popes because they would call a conclave and elect a Pope before half the cardinals in the world even knew that there was a conclave. Messages had to be relayed on horseback and the cardinals had to travel to Rome on a sailing ship.

That started to change with the advent of phones, jet planes and now email and CNN.

-Tim-

 

[SyroMalankara]

Italians were Popes because they would call a conclave and elect a Pope before half the cardinals in the world even knew that there was a conclave. Messages had to be relayed on horseback and the cardinals had to travel to Rome on a sailing ship.

That started to change with the advent of phones, jet planes and now email and CNN.

-Tim-

Not exactly, the Pope being primarily the Bishop of Rome, Primate of Italy, may have something to do with it. Why shouldn’t the Bishop of Rome be Roman?

 

[jeannetherese]

I searched up Saint Peter’s Basilica, which is a famous site in the Vatican, and noticed something. ALL of the statues and paintings were of Italian origin. Is the catholic church universal ethnicity wise, too?

Well, the Church does have a global presence.
Our Pope is from Argentina. At Mass for the feast of Corpus Christi, our local priest quoted a Nigerian Cardinal as he discussed the reality of Christ, fully present in the Eucharist.
When I visit my parents, I love to look at the Korean statue of Our Lady which my dad gifted to my mom on their 50th anniversary.
At home, I have a beautiful cross made in El Salvador, Mexican Dia de Los Muertos folk art, a statue of Our Lady of la Vang (Vietnam), a porcelain representation of Our Lady made by a Native American, several byzantine icons, and an African holy card of the Madonna and Child.
Look a little further. We Catholics, and our art, are everywhere.
May God bless you!
jt

 

[BillyT926]

I have had a problem with this for a few years. The mindset increasingly irritates me: the idea that someone cannot be fully Catholic without visiting Rome, or making a pilgrimage to its basilicas. A local Franciscan community has made it a point of honour to send all its simply-professed brothers to Rome immediately after their novitiate. We are not the Catholic (Universal) Church, but the Italian Church - or perhaps the Romance Church. Culturally-speaking, it’s all about Spanish, French, and Italian.

We can’t really get too frustrated with this, since the Germanic, Scandinavian, and English cultures went Protestant. The Slavic cultures are Orthodox. The French and Spanish were in a mess for hundreds of years during the Islamic invasions. The only strong Catholic cultures that survived for a thousand years were on the Italian peninsula. What do you expect? I’m just a little sick of people thinking that Catholic = Italian.

I’m serious, who thinks that?

I’m of Italian heritage and I live here in Buffalo, and it’s just as much, if not more, of a recognition of Polish and Irish heritage as it is Italian.

 

[BillyT926]

this is a bad thread… if anything there is some weird anti-Italianism going on here