Is the Catholic Church losing sight of Mary?

[MariaChristi]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

In my last two threads: “Mary and the Holy Spirit” and “…guardian of hope in the human heart”, I’ve pondered the great gifts of both Mary and the Holy Spirit. Yesterday I quoted from “Lumen Gentium”, paragraph 68. I received no reply yesterday, so today I’m quoting again from that document on the Church. I’m wondering if the Church is losing sight of Mary? Do any Catholics especially care to behold her?

1. By reason of the gift and role of divine maternity, by which she is united with her Son, the Redeemer, and with His singular graces and functions, the Blessed Virgin is also intimately united with the Church. As St. Ambrose taught, the Mother of God is a type of the Church in the order of faith, charity and perfect union with Christ. For in the mystery of the Church, which is itself rightly called mother and virgin, the Blessed Virgin stands out in eminent and singular fashion as exemplar both of virgin and mother. By her belief and obedience, not knowing man but overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, as the new Eve she brought forth on earth the very Son of the Father, showing an undefiled faith, not in the word of the ancient serpent, but in that of God’s messenger. The Son whom she brought forth is He whom God placed as the first-born among many brethren, namely the faithful, in whose birth and education she cooperates with a maternal love.

1. The Church indeed, contemplating her hidden sanctity, imitating her charity and faithfully fulfilling the Father’s will, by receiving the word of God in faith becomes herself a mother. By her preaching she brings forth to a new and immortal life the sons who are born to her in baptism, conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of God. She herself is a virgin, who keeps the faith given to her by her Spouse whole and entire. Imitating the mother of her Lord, and by the power of the Holy Spirit, she keeps with virginal purity an entire faith, a firm hope and a sincere charity

Is the Catholic Church losing sight of Mary? When was the last time you heard a priest or deacon speak about her, unless it was a Feast of hers on that day? How many families pray the Rosary? How often do Catholic Schools or Parish Schools of Religion (formerly CCD classes, now called PSR), teach about Mary? I mention children because they need her first, but it ought not to stop at Confirmation – even as the study of our Faith through Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium of the Church ought not to stop but to continue throughout youth, adulthood and to the end.

Please let us re-read paragraph 64 above and examine ourselves, on time spent: “contemplating her hidden sanctity, imitating her charity fulfilling the Father’s will…” We either build up the Body of Christ, as Mary conceived and nurtured His Body or we do not. Remember these words:

"…When one moves away from the Mother, sooner or later he ends up keeping distant from the Son as well. It is no wonder that today in various sectors of secularized society, we note a widespread crisis of faith in God preceded by a drop in devotion to the Virgin Mother” … (Address of Pope St. John Paul II to the Legion of Mary, October 30, 1982).

How far has the Catholic Church moved away from the Mother? What say you?

 

[Regina7]

While I can only speak of my observation and experience…I’d say, yes, we are losing sight of Mary. I went to all Catholic school in one of the largest diocese in the US. We NEVER prayed the rosary. Ever. I don’t even remember praying a Hail Mary. When my children were in Catholic schools a few years ago, they too never prayed the rosary.

The teachers at our parish school rarely attend Sunday mass and from what the kids say, religion in general is neglected. Mary? Who’s she?

I am part of the Schoenstatt Marian group. I organize meetings 2x a month to get more people back to Mary. It’s an uphill battle in the sense that there’s little support from where I should expect it- the Church.

I wonder why there’s been a shift away from Mary. Watering down of the faith? Trying to appear more ecumenical (Protestants often claim we worship Mary)?

I don’t get it. Without the Blessed Mother, I’d be a mess.

 

[chimo]

I read your post and I will like to respond to it. I am not quite sure the Catholic Church is moving away from Mary. There maybe pockets of her that does. I am Eastern Orthodox who has live like a Catholic in the first half of my life while living now within the Orthodox Church. My observational skills is something important that God has given to me. I have observed both Churches, Catholic and Orthodox and it is to my opinion that the average Catholic would not get to know Mary within the Mass of the Catholic Church and I would say it is quite impossible. Mary must come to the average Catholic from outside sources. One of these outside sources is the Rosary. This tells me there is a weak link within Catholicism regarding Mary. You are not going to have a relationship with the Mother of God as contained within the Mass of the Catholic Church. Now the Eastern Church works differently than the Catholic Church in achieving a relationship with her. You can get into a relationship with the Mother of God if you only attend to the Divine Liturgy. The Divine Liturgy is the same as the Catholic Mass. Mary is so mentioned throughout the Divine Liturgy every Orthodox and Eastern Christian will come to know her. She is at least mentioned 13 times in the Divine Liturgy. Her Icon is constantly cense by the priest at every Divine Liturgy. The people will see her, invoke her and acknowledge her throughout the Divine Liturgy. This is not the same as it is in the Catholic Mass. The average Catholic needs outside help. This is why the Rosary was started in the Catholic Church. The Rosary helps the average Catholic to come to know Mary. The Eastern Churches do not need the Rosary because their relationship with Mary is built on a different model mostly contained within their Liturgies and other prayer services. This is why I think parts of the Catholic Church do not get into a relationship with Mary is simply there is no outside help and they do not work at it outside the Mass.

 

[miracleplay]

The church I go to does the Hail Mary prayer in mass. I do however believe the Catholic Church is losing sight of Mary. Then again, I also feel the sight is sometimes dissipating because of some ignorant people who believe that we worship Mary and like to spread that false talk around like pox. Saddening though when some younger Catholics become influenced by that stuff and leave.

 

[peter26]

Not in my area. My parish sings the Angelus after Mass twice a week. Another parish in my area says the Rosary after daily Mass Monday-Saturday every day and on Friday nights. Another on Tuesday nights prior to Mass. My parish doesn’t say the Rosary regularly unfortunately, we did for October though. But overall I’d say Marian devotion is live and well in my area.

 

[Dancer1409]

I haven’t noticed the Church losing sight of Mary. At my parish we have a rosary after every daily Mass and at least one on the weekends. One of my parish priests loves Mary a lot and it really shows. He closes every daily Mass with the same Marian song, includes a Hail Mary at Mass most of the time, and talks about Mary a lot, especially when he talks about what led to his vocation.

 

[pianistclare]

No.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

The church I go to does the Hail Mary prayer in mass. I do however believe the Catholic Church is losing sight of Mary. Then again, I also feel the sight is sometimes dissipating because of some ignorant people who believe that we worship Mary and like to spread that false talk around like pox. Saddening though when some younger Catholics become influenced by that stuff and leave.

My parish almost always sings Immaculate Mary at the end of the Mass. I’m actually getting annoyed by it.

 

[Bookcat]

No.

Correct

 

[porthos11]

Correct

+1

For as long as we remain accused of being “Mary worshippers”, we’re in good shape.

 

[DBT]

Correct

ditto

 

[Casilda]

I have to agree with Chimo, my husband and I spent a year in Eastern Orthodox parishes and it was there that we were thoroughly educated on the Theotokos. She is always at the front in the iconostasis, Mary, Jesus and John the Forerunner.

In the older Roman parishes where I live Mary is on one side of the altar and Joseph the other. In the newer parishes they are both missing, relegated to an obscure niche in the back of the church. So is the tabernacle.

Mary is given more respect in our parish, it was there that I heard for the first time in my life the Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary, this is done weekly. There is a procession in May outside in our Marian shrine to crown Mary with flowers. She is mentioned in our Divine Liturgy. Best of all she is the focal point above the altar, being crowned Queen of heaven, looking upon us, her children.

 

[MariaChristi]

I have to agree with Chimo, my husband and I spent a year in Eastern Orthodox parishes and it was there that we were thoroughly educated on the Theotokos. She is always at the front in the iconostasis, Mary, Jesus and John the Forerunner.

In the older Roman parishes where I live Mary is on one side of the altar and Joseph the other. In the newer parishes they are both missing, relegated to an obscure niche in the back of the church. So is the tabernacle.

Mary is given more respect in our parish, it was there that I heard for the first time in my life the Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary, this is done weekly. There is a procession in May outside in our Marian shrine to crown Mary with flowers. She is mentioned in our Divine Liturgy. Best of all she is the focal point above the altar, being crowned Queen of heaven, looking upon us, her children.

Dear Casilda,

Thanks so much for your reply. Perhaps a better title for this thread would have been “Are some members of the Catholic Church losing sight of Mary?” You are right in stating what your personal spiritual growth has gained for you. In the Catholic Church, anyone earnestly seeking God’s Truth, will find that Truth shining thought the one in Whom Truth was made incarnate, by the power of the Holy Spirit. But if we do nothing but catch sight of Mary, and not take her into our lives, and live as she did, pondering His every word and action, docile to His Holy Spirit, then have we done all we need to do?

I hope you and I and others who have, by God’s grace, heard deeply and sought to obey Jesus words: “Behold your Mother” are giving witness to what we have heard and seen. Every member of the Body must function properly, if the Body is to upbuild itself in love. (cf Ephesians 4: 16)

Eastern churches have kept far better than the Western churches – it seems to me – the truth of our Theotokus, the God-bearer, the Holy Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God. The removal of statues and the lessening of devotions in her honor, were actions prompted by a misunderstanding of the Vatican Document on the Church, “Lumen Gentium”. Perhaps also some misunderstandings of how the Catholic Church was to seek dialogue with other Christinan communities. Whatever the causes, by God’s Grace, we can renew true devotion to Mary, as God would have us do. He honored her first.

The task for us today remains. How, by using our unique gifts and graces from God, can we continue to grow and help others grow spiritually as Mary did? What witness is asked of us, personally that we may help others obey the words of Jesus, “Behold your Mother”. Either we go forward or we go backwards; there is no standing still in the spiritual life…

Mary always leads us to Jesus and through Him by the power of the Holy Spirit we go to the Father. Please let us all pray for one another, for the Church and for all those in most need of His Mercy. Thanks again for your reply. It is always good to hear from you – especially in speaking of our Blessed “Thotokus”, Mother Mary.

 

[MariaChristi]

I read your post and I will like to respond to it. I am not quite sure the Catholic Church is moving away from Mary. There maybe pockets of her that does. I am Eastern Orthodox who has live like a Catholic in the first half of my life while living now within the Orthodox Church. My observational skills is something important that God has given to me. I have observed both Churches, Catholic and Orthodox and it is to my opinion that the average Catholic would not get to know Mary within the Mass of the Catholic Church and I would say it is quite impossible. Mary must come to the average Catholic from outside sources. One of these outside sources is the Rosary. This tells me there is a weak link within Catholicism regarding Mary. You are not going to have a relationship with the Mother of God as contained within the Mass of the Catholic Church. Now the Eastern Church works differently than the Catholic Church in achieving a relationship with her. You can get into a relationship with the Mother of God if you only attend to the Divine Liturgy. The Divine Liturgy is the same as the Catholic Mass. Mary is so mentioned throughout the Divine Liturgy every Orthodox and Eastern Christian will come to know her. She is at least mentioned 13 times in the Divine Liturgy. Her Icon is constantly cense by the priest at every Divine Liturgy. The people will see her, invoke her and acknowledge her throughout the Divine Liturgy. This is not the same as it is in the Catholic Mass. The average Catholic needs outside help. This is why the Rosary was started in the Catholic Church. The Rosary helps the average Catholic to come to know Mary. The Eastern Churches do not need the Rosary because their relationship with Mary is built on a different model mostly contained within their Liturgies and other prayer services. This is why I think parts of the Catholic Church do not get into a relationship with Mary is simply there is no outside help and they do not work at it outside the Mass.

Dear chimo,

Thank you so much for your insightful reply. Yes, I agree with you: God has given you a gift of “observation” – a “keen sight” into things, and you are responding to your gift.

The Catholic Church teaches in the Catechism published after the Second Vatican Council that “the Church’s devotion to Mary is* intrinsic* to Christian worship”… (cf paragraph 971). The Church has a very long tradition-- going back centuries-- of this tender and beautiful devotion to Mary, but I think you have observed something important. In my reply to Casilda, I made reference to some of the “misunderstandings” that occurred after the Council.

Your reply gave me further insights into how important our participation in the liturgy needs to become in regard to Mary. My own devotion to Mary did begin outside of Mass, at home and at Catholic School, and very much through the “Legion of Mary” which I joined as a teenager and continue membership now as an adult. The Rosary is a big part of the Legion, and I agree with you that the Rosary has been a powerful gift from God to help Catholics draw closer to Jesus through Mary.

The Mass was important to me, however, before I learned to love Mary and each Mass now only increases my love and gratitude for the grace God gave me in allowing me to hear His Words to Mary and to John so deeply:

John 19: 26-27 - When Jesus saw his mother whom he loved standing near, he said to his Mother,“Woman, behold your son!” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold your Mother!” And from that hour, the disciple took her into his own (some translations render the Greek word own to mean his own home but to St. John Paul II, the Greek word was closer to meaning “his own life or being”)

At the Consecration of each Mass I am there on Calvary with Mary and I offer myself in union with her and with Jesus to the Father. At Holy Communion, I receive the Resurrected Jesus with her. Even when the Mass was in Latin, I loved Mass and Holy Communion as a child and young adult even before I knew what all the words meant, and when I simply read the English translation from by Missal. God’s work in our souls is unique to each of us, but I believe He wants us to keep listening to His Word in Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium of the Church. By His Grace, He intends us each to grow spiritually into the fullness of Christ.(cf Ephesians 4:13)

Thanks again for your reply, I will continue to ponder what you have shared.

 

[Casilda]

The task for us today remains. How, by using our unique gifts and graces from God, can we continue to grow and help others grow spiritually as Mary did? What witness is asked of us, personally that we may help others obey the words of Jesus, “Behold your Mother”. Either we go forward or we go backwards; there is no standing still in the spiritual life.

While reading your response this morning, a thought popped up in my mind. My maternal grandparents, in particular my grandfather, were devoted Catholics. They raised a dozen children, all given names of saints from their birthdate. The oldest two, Jose Maria and Maria.

In Latin-based language countries both men and women are given a form of Mary’s name. Has a Pope taken Mary’s name or a form of it? Mario José Bergoglio and Regina María Bergoglio were our dear Pope’s parents. Mario/Maria. They named her son, Jorge Mario. I would like to see a Pope take Mary’s name or a form of it. Pope Jorge Maria or Jose Maria.

We all have watched actor John Wayne, his real name was Marion. I was pleasantly surprised to find in my Syriac parish many Marys, Miriams, Mariams, Marios. Though I pray Pope Francis lives to be 125, I would love to see the next Pope revive this custom. So that her name is remembered.

I grew up with a lot of kids named Jesus, too. Maria de Jesus, Jesus Maria, etc. So, that is the task, bring the names of Jesus, Mary and Joseph back through the baptismal font. Let them be seen, let them be known, let them be remembered.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

Is devotion to Mary right and truly helpful in forming a relationship with Jesus Christ? Absolutely. Is devotion to her necessary for salvation? No. Even St. Louis de Montfort says there are other ways to Christ.

 

[MariaChristi]

While reading your response this morning, a thought popped up in my mind. My maternal grandparents, in particular my grandfather, were devoted Catholics. They raised a dozen children, all given names of saints from their birthdate. The oldest two, Jose Maria and Maria.

In Latin-based language countries both men and women are given a form of Mary’s name. Has a Pope taken Mary’s name or a form of it? Mario José Bergoglio and Regina María Bergoglio were our dear Pope’s parents. Mario/Maria. They named her son, Jorge Mario. I would like to see a Pope take Mary’s name or a form of it. Pope Jorge Maria or Jose Maria.

We all have watched actor John Wayne, his real name was Marion. I was pleasantly surprised to find in my Syriac parish many Marys, Miriams, Mariams, Marios. Though I pray Pope Francis lives to be 125, I would love to see the next Pope revive this custom. So that her name is remembered.

I grew up with a lot of kids named Jesus, too. Maria de Jesus, Jesus Maria, etc. So, that is the task, bring the names of Jesus, Mary and Joseph back through the baptismal font. Let them be seen, let them be known, let them be remembered.

Dear Casilda,

What a sweet thought! Of course, it is still possible that a Pope might take a name which would include some form of Mary’s name. St. Louis Marie de Montfort, St. John Mary Vianney, St. Josemaria Escriva are three holy priests who bore our Lady’s name. We might do well to start suggesting young parents give their babies Holy Family baptismal names. Most importantly, we can share knowledge of the Holy Family through scripture and the example of holiness in our own living of Christ’s Life.

We share what is important to us. If we truly love Mary, we want to share her with others. Mary, of course wants to share Jesus with all of us. No other human person in this world has ever loved Jesus more than she did on this earth. Mary can teach us to love Him and with Him to love all the children God has created. I ponder often the words of Mary at Fatima: “My Immaculate Heart will triumph”. God will give us victory through Mary’s child. Jesus came to us through Mary in His First Coming and He will come again. Mary, Mother of the Church, pray for us.

 

[MariaChristi]

Is devotion to Mary right and truly helpful in forming a relationship with Jesus Christ? Absolutely. Is devotion to her necessary for salvation? No. Even St. Louis de Montfort says there are other ways to Christ.

Dear Jon,

Thanks for your reply. It is true that we need not have a devotion or even knowledge of Mary for salvation. The Church also teaches that if anyone has never heard of Christ but is earnestly seeking truth that person can be saved. Nevertheless, why would we not want to give persons the fullness of Truth so they might find Jesus – even as the Magi found Him with Mary His Mother?

St. De Montfort admits there may be other ways to Christ, but he also teaches in his classic treatiseTrue Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary that Mary is “the safest, easiest, shortest and most perfect way of approaching Jesus”.

In my original post beginning this thread, I quoted St. John Paul II because I believe he saw a significant consequence for Catholics who may be losing sight of Mary:

"…When one moves away from the Mother, sooner or later he ends up keeping distant from the Son as well. It is no wonder that today in various sectors of secularized society, we note a widespread crisis of faith in God preceded by a drop in devotion to the Virgin Mother” … (Address of Pope St. John Paul II to the Legion of Mary, October 30, 1982).

 

[MariaChristi]

While I can only speak of my observation and experience…I’d say, yes, we are losing sight of Mary. I went to all Catholic school in one of the largest diocese in the US. We NEVER prayed the rosary. Ever. I don’t even remember praying a Hail Mary. When my children were in Catholic schools a few years ago, they too never prayed the rosary.

The teachers at our parish school rarely attend Sunday mass and from what the kids say, religion in general is neglected. Mary? Who’s she?

I am part of the Schoenstatt Marian group. I organize meetings 2x a month to get more people back to Mary. It’s an uphill battle in the sense that there’s little support from where I should expect it- the Church.

I wonder why there’s been a shift away from Mary. Watering down of the faith? Trying to appear more ecumenical (Protestants often claim we worship Mary)?

I don’t get it. Without the Blessed Mother, I’d be a mess.

Dear Regina,

Thanks so much for your reply and for your love and devotion to our Mother Mary. Thank you for the work you are doing as part of the Schoenstatt Marian group. I had read about this movement some years ago but I looked it up again because I couldn’t remember too much about it. Are you anywhere near the group in Texas? The founder, Father Joseph Kentenich, in 1914, (much like the founder of the Legion of Mary, Servant of God Frank Duff in 1921), seems to have “anticipated” Vatican II and the particular call of all to holiness.

As a teenager, I joined the Junior Legion of Mary, at a time in the Catholic Church when devotion to Mary was very strong (circa 1952-53 ). I suspect your high school years were after Vatican II, when the gradual decline in Marian devotion, within the Church, began in part because of some misunderstandings of the document on the Church, “Lumen Gentium”. I remember working in a diocese where a group pf Nuns had a retreat house and they were actually encouraging some retreatants NOT to pray the Rosary. So sad.

I will be eternally grateful to the Dominican Nuns who introduced me to the Legion at my high school, and the one particular Nun who invited us to consecrate ourselves to Jesus through Mary according to St. Louis de Montfort. Now I am a member of our parish adult Legion of Mary, and like yourself I too experience an “uphill battle”. I find in my parish a strange mixture of secularism, indifference, and yet a feeble holding on to some exterior observances like Sunday Mass. I say “feeble” because there are still empty pews.

St. John Paul II saw, with the wisdom given to saints, a connection between the crisis of faith and the fact that it was preceded by a drop in devotion to Mary. How truly he warned that if we move away from the Mother, it is not long before we separate ourselves from the Son! Please let us continue to work as long as we can, and as well as we can to help our brothers and sisters to hear Jesus’ words more deeply: “Behold Your Mother” and having heard His Truth, by His Grace, may we do the truth we hear and like the beloved disciple John, take Mary into our lives. May we learn from her by the power of the Holy Spirit as she learned from Jesus.

Besides the misunderstandings, there may be several other possible causes, for the decline in devotion to Mary some of us are seeing in our particular parishes and families, only God knows each human heart He created. The important thing, it seems to me, is what we do in our own time, with what God has given to us. “Everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required” (Luke 12:48)

 

[MariaChristi]

My parish almost always sings Immaculate Mary at the end of the Mass. I’m actually getting annoyed by it.

Dear JB Brother,

Thanks for your reply. Maybe the Music Director or the Pastor has a special devotion to Mary or pondered her words at Fatima: “My Immaculate Heart will Triumph”

… “my Immaculate Heart will triumph”. What does this mean? The Heart open to God, purified by contemplation of God, is stronger than guns and weapons of every kind. The fiat of Mary, the word of her heart, has changed the history of the world, because it brought the Saviour into the world—because, thanks to her Yes, God could become man in our world and remains so for all time. The Evil One has power in this world, as we see and experience continually; he has power because our freedom continually lets itself be led away from God. But since God himself took a human heart and has thus steered human freedom towards what is good, the freedom to choose evil no longer has the last word. From that time forth, the word that prevails is this: “In the world you will have tribulation, but take heart; I have overcome the world” (Jn 16:33). The message of Fatima invites us to trust in this promise. (Underlining is mine)

The words above are from the Vatican document on the Message of Fatima, issued by then Joseph Card. Ratzinger, as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, now Pope Emeritus, (Benedict XVI). In the very beginning of this document we read:

…Throughout history there have been supernatural apparitions and signs which go to the heart of human events and which, to the surprise of believers and non-believers alike, play their part in the unfolding of history. These manifestations can never contradict the content of faith, and must therefore have their focus in the core of Christ’s proclamation: the Father’s love which leads men and women to conversion and bestows the grace required to abandon oneself to him with filial devotion. This too is the message of Fatima which, with its urgent call to conversion and penance, draws us to the heart of the Gospel.

Fatima is undoubtedly the most prophetic of modern apparitions…

When we hear something over and over, the old adage can become apparent: “Familiarity breeds contempt”. You might speak to the Music Director about varying the recessional hymns so people do not become so used to a hymn they become “annoyed” instead of listening and pondering the words they sing. The words really are beautiful to me:
Immaculate Mary, thy praises we sing,
Who reignest in splendor with Jesus our King.
Ave, Ave, Ave María! Ave, Ave María!

In heaven the blessed thy glory proclaim,
On earth we thy children invoke thy fair name.
Ave, Ave, Ave María! Ave, Ave María!

Thy name is our power, thy virtues our light,
Thy love is our comfort, thy pleading our might.
Ave, Ave, Ave, María! Ave, Ave, María!