Is the Catholic Church Real?

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I’m wondering.

I read the Bible, the ECF, the CCC, the stuff on this forum. Plausible.

Then I listen to homilies at Masses, I talk to Catholics I work with, I heard a heretical RCIA instructor who didn’t bother to answer my e-mail. Liberalism. Licentiousness. Heresy. Failure to grasp essential Christianity. Profound ignorance.

This is an old, tired argument, that Catholics don’t believe Catholicism and that the educational apparatus isn’t what it should be. That the worst argument for Catholicism is Catholics. Jesus said to judge them by their fruit, and I see foul-mouthed gamblers running after the sins of the flesh who call themselves Catholics but don’t seem to have a clue. Maybe the sensational sinners draw attention to themselves and the crowds of pious Catholics quietly serve God without notice. I can’t judge people, but some thrust their sin in my face so I cannot avoid noticing it, while those who quietly serve don’t want to be noticed. The problem is that they aren’t noticed, and so the spectacular sinners get all the attention. And those Catholics who have their act together aren’t about to proclaim that they do, look at them, because that in itself would be a violation of their integrity.

How many practicing Catholics do you personally know who are leading model lives of Catholic piety and holiness?
 
Hello, I see by your profile that your stated religion is Presbytarian. I have nothing against them, however I haven’t noticed that these people are especially holy or pious.

Yes, the Catholic Church has many people who, as my priest likes to put it, lead ordinary lives. It’s a large church with many people. As far as foul mouthed gamblers, I didn’t know that Catholics were prone to that.

I used to attend a Presbytarian Church with an old lady friend of mine who needed help getting to church. I didn’t notice any especial holiness there. They emphasized a long sermon, a share your troubles and triumphs section, and they had a delightful coffee social hour, with many delicious pastries after church. They seemed like ordinary people to me.
 
Quick comparative note: The Corinthians thought they were Christians even though they were quite immoral. Paul had to explain to them that they needed to change their lives.

They had the right faith, but the wrong lives.

The Catholic church needs more Saint Pauls. And it needs to flee from sin. But then again, who doesn’t?

(If we were to follow the creed that seemed the most virtuous, I imagine we would all become Mormons.)
 
'spose you’re right. Different approaches to Christianity.
Non-Catholic Christians have no Pope, priests, or absolute teaching authority to spread the Apostolic Faith consistently for them.
But, any non-Catholic Christian can call themselves a minister or whatever with or without qualifications and start a church, or maybe forego altogether the concept of a church and simply have lay-persons wandering about the place preaching whatever occurs to them.
So perhaps Non-Catholics are used to a more lay-vocal Christianity.
Catholics, I think, have always attempted to ‘live the Faith’ unobtrusively, even the teaching orders. They are quiet people.
 
Truthstalker said:
I’m wondering.

I read the Bible, the ECF, the CCC, the stuff on this forum. Plausible.

Then I listen to homilies at Masses, I talk to Catholics I work with, I heard a heretical RCIA instructor who didn’t bother to answer my e-mail. Liberalism. Licentiousness. Heresy. Failure to grasp essential Christianity. Profound ignorance.

This is an old, tired argument, that Catholics don’t believe Catholicism and that the educational apparatus isn’t what it should be. That the worst argument for Catholicism is Catholics. Jesus said to judge them by their fruit, and I see foul-mouthed gamblers running after the sins of the flesh who call themselves Catholics but don’t seem to have a clue. Maybe the sensational sinners draw attention to themselves and the crowds of pious Catholics quietly serve God without notice. I can’t judge people, but some thrust their sin in my face so I cannot avoid noticing it, while those who quietly serve don’t want to be noticed. The problem is that they aren’t noticed, and so the spectacular sinners get all the attention. And those Catholics who have their act together aren’t about to proclaim that they do, look at them, because that in itself would be a violation of their integrity.

How many practicing Catholics do you personally know who are leading model lives of Catholic piety and holiness?
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I’m British and live in the Philippines (85% Catholic country) and I know many many Catholics who live pious and holy lives and most certainly are good examples of how to live a real Christian life.
 
“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, “Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?”
But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.
“But go and learn what this means: `I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

The people you are describing are the people who most need to be part of the Catholic Church. Don’t disparage them. Minister to them.
 
Verita said:
“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, “Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?”
But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.
“But go and learn what this means: `I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

The people you are describing are the people who most need to be part of the Catholic Church. Don’t disparage them. Minister to them.
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I agree. I think Protestant churches tend to drive out those who have big problems, where the Catholic church adopts a “wheat and tares” approach. I would like to know if people know Catholics personally whom they admire.
 
This is a new problem?

Think about all the time Jesus met sinners. People who, in the eyes of Judaism, were scum of the earth. Yet Jesus also met the pious. Good men and women.

We are (generally) baptized as infants. This means that many more people than actually practice Catholicism (or Anglicanism) are officially members of the physical institution of the church, even if they do not subscribe to the beliefs.

They are not Catholic, even if they have certificates that say they are. So to say that the worst enemy of the Catholic Church is the Catholics is kind of misleading.

Hitler was a Catholic, he didn’t practice. Should he be used to reflect poorly on the church? Of course not. He had free will. But what if Hitler went to mass every sunday but still committed his atrocities? Just because he may identify as Catholic does not mean he is leading a Catholic life or that he even believes what a Catholic should believe.

Every church has the people who identify with them but who do not practice (or poorly practice) the daily exercises of their faith. Presbyterians, Baptists, Jews, Muslims, Catholics and everyone else. That doesn’t mean we should be judging other religions based upon those who hang on the fringes. If you want to see the spirituality of any religion, you need to look at their faithful. If you look at their malcontents, you will only find fault.
 
Yes the Catholic Church is real. This I do know. All I can do is be an example i.e. live my faith. I do share my faith to others, but I try not to be pushy, boastful, or judgmental. Now this is a little hard for me to explain but I will try…We all are called to be holey. We all are called to strive to be more Christ like. We all fall short. Now this might sound a little boastful, but it not meant on my part to be…I am very humble in my faith. I am very humble in how I try to live my faith. I know I do not deserve Salvation. It is only by God’s Grace that I can hope for and work out my Salvation. As to the other concern’s you have, I never had to go through RCIA, ( I’m am a Revert) but from what I have read on different Catholic forum’s.it is a hit and miss kinda thing….so sad….no excuse. I am so sorry your RCIA experience is not a good one. As to the Liberal (US) Church, I agree, but I think we are seeing less of this now. I think we have turned the corner on this one. But it will take a little time to correct.
 
There are many reasons for the mixture of good and bad, light and dark, one of them being the mere fact that the Church is a divine and human organization. It will always manifest its humanity, for better and worse. We must not shrink from this truth however, as the late Cardinal Jean Daniélou reminds us:

“I have no liking for Christians who will not touch the facts of human existence for fear of soiling their hands. The Christians who struggle to make Christianity effective in the world, even at the cost of painful blows, those I admire. I love that Church that plunges into the thickets of human history and is not afraid of compromising itself by getting mixed up with human affairs, with their political conflicts and their cultural disputes. I love that Church because it loves people and therefore goes out to look for them wherever they are. And I love best of all that Church which is mud-splashed from history because it has played its part in history…”
 
Truthstalker said:
I agree. I think Protestant churches tend to drive out those who have big problems, where the Catholic church adopts a “wheat and tares” approach. I would like to know if people know Catholics personally whom they admire.
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Well, I am a new convert coming out of an exclusively protestant background. We’re still in the process of looking for a parish to establish ourselves so I don’t really know any Catholics. The one that I can say for sure is my husband. He singly handedly showed me the fullness of Catholic faith and I will be eternally grateful to him. 🙂
“I have no liking for Christians who will not touch the facts of human existence for fear of soiling their hands. The Christians who struggle to make Christianity effective in the world, even at the cost of painful blows, those I admire. I love that Church that plunges into the thickets of human history and is not afraid of compromising itself by getting mixed up with human affairs, with their political conflicts and their cultural disputes. I love that Church because it loves people and therefore goes out to look for them wherever they are. And I love best of all that Church which is mud-splashed from history because it has played its part in history…”
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That is an amazing quote. I wholeheartedly agree. 🙂
 
Truthstalker said:
I’m wondering.

Jesus said to judge them by their fruit, and I see foul-mouthed gamblers running after the sins of the flesh who call themselves Catholics but don’t seem to have a clue. Maybe the sensational sinners draw attention to themselves and the crowds of pious Catholics quietly serve God without notice.
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Jesus doesn’t mind too much the sinner who knows he is a sinner. The price of redemption might be high, but it is gladly paid for the worth of the soul.

Hypocrites irritate Him. The man who claims to be Godly because he pays his taxes and doesn’t drink, but is in fact merely lining his own pockets. Such a man doesn’t realise he needs saving.

The worst, however, is the man who refuses to forgive. Jesus can forgive him, but he cannot forgive the offence against this man if the man himself insists on restitution. Thus an impossible situation is created.

You’ve got to remember that there are two sides to the truth. Yes we must judge the church by the number of good works she produces, but not by the company she keeps.
 
Truthstalker said:
I agree. I think Protestant churches tend to drive out those who have big problems, where the Catholic church adopts a “wheat and tares” approach. I would like to know if people know Catholics personally whom they admire.
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There are too many Catholic’s I admire to list here. But here are a few.
First my Mother (Cradle Catholic). She lived her faith. Being Catholic and Christian was a 24/7 thing for her. She died when I was 12 (1968) Which brings me to another Catholic I admire…My Dad (Convert). He was left to raise 7 kid’s (small Catholic family) on his own. He kept us all in church, and out of trouble. He always had/made time for us. And no matter what we had done he never stopped loving, or gave up on us. He was an example to me on how a Christian and Catholic man should live. He was always there for me when I needed him. He went to be with Jesus and my Mother in 2005.
 
I know of plenty of Catholics who are horrible sinners, and I do know personally of several very holy people who quietly live holy lives.
We are told to pray in secret, not to announce our holiness.

You will find that faithful holy Catholics usually don’t bring attention to themselves.

The troublemakers are pretty easy to spot they are on TV, leading people astray, making a bad example, inventing new personal agendas\ideas and generally bringing attention to themselves. That is one common thing you will see throughout the world in the Catholic Church, people trying to ruin it from the outside and inside.

We do need more real men and women in the Catholic Church willing to stand up for what is right, not to bring attention and admiration to themselves but to defend truth. Nowdays our society doesn’t breed real men and women though so you wont see too many public defenders of the faith, but they are out there or else places like Catholic Answers wouldn’t exist.

In Christ
Scylla
 
Hi,
2:( and I know alot of catholics.It is not just catholics. It is all religions. I wonder if it because of the culture I live in. I am in the Northeast close to NY:eek: We live a very fast paced materialistic life here. I, myself, try to stay as far away as possible. I bet geographic location has alot to do with how people live. I think in America we feel we dont need God because we have our needs met(most of us)Think about it–when do you mostly reach out to God–when you need something. We dont depend on Him for our daily needs because we can have or get what ever we want.

Alot of people just go through the motions in every church building. They have not received(personally) the true message of Christ. They sit in service or mass out of obligation and do what they need to do because they think that if I am a good person God will let me into heaven. Churches(in general) are just not teaching the real truth because, quite frankly, it does not go along with society.:eek: Alot of churches have a watered down gospel message. When I meet someone, the one way I can tell they are not saved is when they say, “Well Im a good person, I dont kill anyone, I go to church. God is a loving God and He wouldnt let someone like me go to hell.” That tells me that they dont fully understand the truth. It is sad the way our churches are going.😦

Ok sorry my rant is over.😉
 
Truthstalker said:
I would like to know if people know Catholics personally whom they admire.
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Yes I do, and I consider it a true blessing to know them. I like this quote from Peter Kreeft, “For there is no more effective method of religious education than the presence of saints. Perhaps there is no other effective method at all…Sanctify is an extremely contagious infection. Saints spring up around saints.”

In addition to having had a few wonderful elderly Catholic relatives, I know a fair number my own age who try to live up to the standards of the Church. The saintly, faithful Catholics that I know generally draw less attention to themselves than those Catholics who disagree loudly with the Church. I pray Jesus will put one or two of these living saints in your life. They really do help spread sanctity like an infection.🙂
 
Truthstalker said:
I agree. I think Protestant churches tend to drive out those who have big problems, where the Catholic church adopts a “wheat and tares” approach. I would like to know if people know Catholics personally whom they admire.
Click to expand...
I absolutely know Catholics whom I admire. The list is long, very long actually. I was as polar opposite as one can be from Catholic until my late 30s when I finally came home to Rome as they say. But God faithfully put Catholics in my life in quiet, but meaningful ways. It was the true desire to live out the faith that drew me closer to the Church, the flame of truth and love that I witnessed so blatantly in the faces of these precious people.

👍
 
Truthstalker said:
I’m wondering.

I read the Bible, the ECF, the CCC, the stuff on this forum. Plausible.
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That’s a big statement, with heavy implications. I think you need to ignore the cafeteria catholics that you have associations with and focus on the core catholic beliefs and teachings of the magesterium. Are they plausible? Do you believe them? Compare and contrast the theology with presbyterian doctrine and protestant theology. Which do you agree with and why? Dig into church history and understand what the early church fathers believed and why. Does protestantism embrace the beliefs of the early church more than modern day catholicism? What caused the reformation and are those reasons sufficient to justify the neologisms and radical divergent christian teachings and denominations that exist today? What did Luther and Calvin actually believe? Are there any RCC beliefs that can not be supported or alluded to by scripture and the tradition of the early church fathers?

These are the fundamental questions that you need to answer for yourself. It’s implausible to assume that the majority of catholics live their lives without the fruits of the spirit. This can also be demonstrated by the number of testimonial responses to your original question. Chances are that you are just surrounded by the wrong demographic slice so to speak. Do you want to find the true church or a community that you would define as the most “Christ-like”? The most pious and disciplined person I know was someone I worked with who happened to be…a muslim. I’ve been impressed by the character and integrity of more muslims than christians by a long shot, but I don’t plan on converting to islam anytime soon. 🙂 Seek the truth and the truth will find you.

Anyway, good luck in your search. Oh, and I’m a presbyterian protestant in the process of conversion. 🙂 Good luck! I’ll certainly pray for you.
 
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