Is the Catholic Church Supreme?

[Caesar]

The Catholic Church is supreme among all of Christianity. It is the Church which Christ founded, and which contains the fullness of His teachings

 

[nerfherder]

After my query above, I have two further questions - to anyone - then I shall go think.

(1) We have the Avignon Papacy in the period 1309 to 1377 during which seven popes, all French, resided in Avignon:
Pope Clement V: 1305–1314
Pope John XXII: 1316–1334
Pope Benedict XII: 1334–1342
Pope Clement VI: 1342–1352
Pope Innocent VI: 1352–1362
Pope Urban V: 1362–1370
Pope Gregory XI: 1370–1378

In 1378, Gregory XI moved the papal residence back to Rome and died there. Due to a dispute over the subsequent election, a faction of cardinals set up an antipope back in Avignon:
Clement VII: 1378–1394
Benedict XIII: 1394–1423 (expelled from Avignon in 1403)

This was the period of difficulty from 1378 to 1417 which Catholic scholars refer to as the “Western schism” or, “the great controversy of the antipopes” (also called “the second great schism” by some secular and Protestant historians), when parties within the Catholic church were divided in their allegiances among the various claimants to the office of pope. The Council of Constance in 1417 finally resolved the controversy.

Is there any possibility that papal succession was terminally confused during this period? That the succession was fallibly determined? Or has this been worked out by the Magisterium or a Commission?

1. The assumption that RCC continues on the main path, while other Christian denominations have fallen off is virtually universal. It occurs to me however that, although its interpretations are held to be divinely inspired, continuous, and comprehensive, there is a possibility that RCC took off in the wrong direction while the reformed churches (mainstream protestantism and let us not forget Eastern Orthodoxy) in their determination to undo the errors of the Roman Church, continued to hack out the main path of Christian faith.

Is it possible that RCC is on a rather grand detour, and that protestantism is showing the way to true faith, particularly in its missions to humanity, its spirituality, and its generally more intimate relationship with Christ - for starters?

 

[Caesar]

Is there any possibility that papal succession was terminally confused during this period? That the succession was fallibly determined? Or has this been worked out by the Magisterium or a Commission?

2Is it possible that RCC is on a rather grand detour, and that protestantism is showing the way to true faith, particularly in its missions to humanity, its spirituality, and its generally more intimate relationship with Christ - for starters?

1. This issue has in fact been worked out.
2. No.

 

[guanophore]

It also implies that the Church – because it has authority – is not a servant leader and that implication is unsubstantiated. But at least we can agree that the Church has authority. Or at least it seems that way from what you have said thus far.

So, if the Church has authority, then what is the problem?

I never equated supremacy with authority, that was someone else (or you). I simply posted the OP’'s issue because it did not belong on the other thread. I implied, rather, that an attitude of supremacy, and “ruling over” others after the “manner of the kings of this world” (abusing power) is not consistent with servant leadership.

As far as authority is concerned, it is not necessary, especially if on actually HAS authority, to lord it over others. An attitude of supremacy is not called for, or necessary in such cases.

 

[Sixtus]

I get bugged by a number of Catholics posting here beating the drum of the “supremacy” of Peter and the Catholic Church. To me, it seems to fly in the face of Jesus’ teachings on humility

It is my proudest and only boast. I am so proud to be Catholic.

I never feel so exaulted as I do when I bow before the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[nerfherder]

1. This issue has in fact been worked out.
2. No.

Would you care to elaborate? I would value your observations.

 

[nerfherder]

The Catholic Church is supreme among all of Christianity. It is the Church which Christ founded, and which contains the fullness of His teachings

I think I just had an epiphany! I know - there are lots of differing interpretations of what that might mean.

I have been mulling over and over the issue of the certainty of Catholic Christians that their faith, their God, their Church, their Bible, their baptism are not only infallibly authoritative but also supreme wrt any other major Christian or other belief system.

I am a would-be convert, far along my spiritual journey. This matter is a huge stumbling block for me. And I have just realised why this is so.

**It is not the belief itself that I object to: it is the right of every individual to hold whatever beliefs he or she chooses (within the law). Such rights are enshrined in various codes, national and international laws and conventions.

What I object to, and object to strongly, is the bigotry that is implied by this belief which denigrates other Christian denominations, and other faiths. The following quotes come from recent Forum postings:**

They [those of other denominations] have faith, they love Christ, but they love Him through a false religion, a religion started by revolutionaries, not God.

He does not force His love upon those who are separated from Him. That is a modern twist of the faith that is simply false. If we choose to not love Christ, He will not force us to be with Him. Yours is a false Protestant mentality born of a modern and fallen culture that thinks all one has to do is say they love Jesus. It is ridiculous.

There IS only ONE church. The Holy Catholic Church established by Jesus Christ. That is why the “ecclesial communities” made up of every Christian outside of the one Church can not be part of that One Holy Catholic Church.

It seems as if this thread is saying it is due to the bad behaviour of past popes led to people leaving the church and forming their own churches. People still do this today.The problem with this is, these people aren’t looking at the Truth the church teaches, which cannot be argued with, but rather they are looking at the outwardly appearance of the church, which is shown through popes, bishops, priests, and members. All of these people sin, all of these people are not perfect like Jesus was.If this can be looked past, people would stay with the church, as the church holds the Truth.

Why should Christians - of whatever denomination - persist in this kind of bias? It is inappropriate, unChristian, and must inevitably be sinful - certainly in the eyes of Christ. It is irrelevant to this argument that He gave the keys to Peter.

What is relevant is how he told us to live, to work, to be; what he told us about compassion, lovingkindness and caritas; what he taught us about community and sharing, about discussing and learning.

He was a Rabbi, a Jew. Do Catholic Christians cast aspersions on His religion too?

I feel sad.

 

[cathgal]

It seems as if this thread is saying it is due to the bad behaviour of past popes led to people leaving the church and forming their own churches.

And once they realize that there are also bad apples in their own churches, then what?

 

[guanophore]

It is my proudest and only boast. I am so proud to be Catholic.

I never feel so exaulted as I do when I bow before the Blessed Sacrament.

I think this is commendable, and I admire you in it. However, what I am speaking against is the arrogance of Catholics who seem to think that they are somhow “better” than others because of their blessedness. I see our Peter saying:

1 Peter 5:5
Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

and I see so many of Peter’s flock failing in humility.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I think this is commendable, and I admire you in it. However, what I am speaking against is the arrogance of Catholics who seem to think that they are somhow “better” than others because of their blessedness.

I agree. I hear the voice of Peter saying…

Fraternal correction is a work of mercy. None of us sees himself or his shortcomings clearly. It is therefore an act of love to complement one another, to help one another see each other better, and correct each other.

I think that one of the very functions of collegiality is to help one another, also in the sense of the previous imperative, to know the shortcomings that we ourselves do not want to see - “ab occultis meis munda me” [from my secret ones cleanse me - Psalm 18:13 Douay-Rheims] , the Psalm says - to help one another to open ourselves and to see these things.

Of course, this great work of mercy, helping one another so that each of us can truly rediscover his own integrity and functionality as an instrument of God, demands great humility and love.

Only if it comes from a humble heart that does not rank itself above others, that does not consider itself better than others but only a humble instrument to offer reciprocal help; only if we feel this true and deep humility, if we feel that these words come from common love, from the collegial affection in which we want to serve God together, can we help one another in this regard with a great act of love.

Here too the Greek text adds some nuances. The Greek word is “paracaleisthe”; it is the same root as the word “Paracletos, paraclesis”, to comfort. It does not only mean to correct but also to comfort, to share the other’s sufferings, to help him in his difficulties. And this also seems to me a great act of true collegial affection. (Pope Benedict XVI, **Opening of the 11th Ordinary General Assembly of the Synod of Bishops, 3 October 2005)

 

[cradle_convert]

Honestly, I didn’t know that this was a forum for anti-catholic screed.

Over and over again, certain posters and thread makers make it obvious that although they claim to be catholic, they hate the church.

As far as I can tell, their goal is not to discuss or gain information, but to attack and subvert the faith, posing as catholics.

You know who you are.

I would like to help with the “supremacy” question.

Some of you are like Pilate, when he scoffed, “WHAT IS TRUTH!?”

Truth is not some fuzzy moveable idea. Jesus laid it out, and he claimed that he came to bear witness to it. Pretty clear.

Peter did not take “supremacy” or authority for himself. Jesus gave it to him. Please tell me I do not have to list the many passages here which make clear that Peter had a special and unique role in feeding the sheep, etc. If you are not very familiar with those passages, you should be reading the bible instead of this post.

Jesus showed by example that the leader must be the servant.

Some people just can’t stand authority. They assume that every leader, even if his power has been given to him by others, (no pope runs for the position…he is chosen.) is an oppressive despot. This is so incredibly childish. It is typical of people who want to invent their faith as they go along…unwilling to abide in the truth and unable to recognize it when it conks them on the forehead.

You see, both the protestant and the catholic churches cannot hold the truth. Look at their positions on the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist. Can both be right? Are both true? Of course not.

So, if you despise the catholic church so much, why are you on this forum? Go find yourself a denomination which fits your own unique version of the “truth”, and join it. Or, heck…start your own. Call it Guanophorism or something like that. If there is no objective truth, what difference does it make?

What we are really talking about here… the point I am making … is that the catholic church being the Pillar and Bulwark of Truth has nothing to do with power or supremacy. It has to do with TRUTH. Understand??

Please read the Acts of the Apostles again. And again. Then remember what happened when Matthias was chosen and what was said about taking the bishopric. Read the Church Fathers. Heck, read the entire new testament again. You will not only see that only 11/12 apostles that Jesus picked himself were faithful, but you will also see a real CHURCH… ONE church. Not sixty different versions. You will also see the beginnings of heresies and how they were handled.

Please, instead of digging in your heels against authority like an immature teenager, read the scriptures and you will find the catholic church, the ONE pillar and bulwark of truth.

God love you and stay on the ship, please

cradle convert

 

[nerfherder]

Honestly, I didn’t know that this was a forum for anti-catholic screed.

Over and over again, certain posters and thread makers make it obvious that although they claim to be catholic, they hate the church.

As far as I can tell, their goal is not to discuss or gain information, but to attack and subvert the faith, posing as catholics.

You know who you are.

I would like to help with the “supremacy” question.

Some of you are like Pilate, when he scoffed, “WHAT IS TRUTH!?”

Truth is not some fuzzy moveable idea. Jesus laid it out, and he claimed that he came to bear witness to it. Pretty clear.

Peter did not take “supremacy” or authority for himself. Jesus gave it to him. Please tell me I do not have to list the many passages here which make clear that Peter had a special and unique role in feeding the sheep, etc. If you are not very familiar with those passages, you should be reading the bible instead of this post.

Jesus showed by example that the leader must be the servant.

Some people just can’t stand authority. They assume that every leader, even if his power has been given to him by others, (no pope runs for the position…he is chosen.) is an oppressive despot. This is so incredibly childish. It is typical of people who want to invent their faith as they go along…unwilling to abide in the truth and unable to recognize it when it conks them on the forehead.

You see, both the protestant and the catholic churches cannot hold the truth. Look at their positions on the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist. Can both be right? Are both true? Of course not.

So, if you despise the catholic church so much, why are you on this forum? Go find yourself a denomination which fits your own unique version of the “truth”, and join it. Or, heck…start your own. Call it Guanophorism or something like that. If there is no objective truth, what difference does it make?

What we are really talking about here… the point I am making … is that the catholic church being the Pillar and Bulwark of Truth has nothing to do with power or supremacy. It has to do with TRUTH. Understand??

You will not only see that only 11/12 apostles that Jesus picked himself were faithful, but you will also see a real CHURCH… ONE church. Not sixty different versions. You will also see the beginnings of heresies and how they were handled.

Please, instead of digging in your heels against authority like an immature teenager, read the scriptures and you will find the catholic church, the ONE pillar and bulwark of truth.

Your anger, arrogance and certainty prove the point. Perhaps the Forum is too catholic for you.

 

[cradle_convert]

I forgot to mention, in response to a comment by Nerfherder that protestants have a more intimate relationship with Christ…

How much more intimate can one get than eating His Body and Drinking His Blood. Remember, catholics didn’t make this up. Jesus commanded it. READ YOUR BIBLE!!

Either Jesus is really present in the Blessed Sacrament, or He isn’t. Paul said many were getting sick and some dying from not discerning the Body of the Lord. Was he lying? Was Jesus kidding around when he said that unless we eat His Body and drink His Blood, we have no life in us??

So, any church that chooses to ignore that and make up their own version, which continues to morph and twist until it has become 33,000 denominations… has walked away and forsaken the truth.

Would you trade the Lord and the Truth for political correctness, so that everybody feels good but is dead wrong??

Apparently.

Find me a protestant denomination that makes sense. I have looked, and I have looked hard. None of them make any sense. So, again, it is not a matter of superiority… it is a matter that BOTH cannot be true.

Jesus: “I have come to bear witness to the TRUTH”

God’s love to you

cradle convert

 

[cradle_convert]

To some, the Truth hurts, and looks like anger. You see this everywhere in our culture. Soon it will be a hate crime to tell the Truth. You don’t believe in objective truth, so it is offensive to you. You want something to “tickle your ears”.

Please, please read the New Testament.

love

cradle catholic

 

[cradle_convert]

Nerfherder, where are you enrolled in RCIA?

cradle convert

 

[nerfherder]

To some, the Truth hurts, and looks like anger. You see this everywhere in our culture. Soon it will be a hate crime to tell the Truth. You don’t believe in objective truth, so it is offensive to you. You want something to “tickle your ears”.

Please, please read the New Testament.

love

cradle catholic

This is not love, and you disrespect the word by using it thus, especially at Eastertide.

Your arrogance and ignorance is appalling.

 

[cradle_convert]

It is Loving to tell the Truth, sweetie.

And, whoever you are, I do love you. God knows my heart.

cradle convert

 

[guanophore]

Honestly, I didn’t know that this was a forum for anti-catholic screed.

Over and over again, certain posters and thread makers make it obvious that although they claim to be catholic, they hate the church.

As far as I can tell, their goal is not to discuss or gain information, but to attack and subvert the faith, posing as catholics. You know who you are.

If you are new, you may not realize that there are a good number of non-Catholics on this board. Some are here to learn. Some are here to “debunk” CAtholicism and try to convert Catholics.

I would like to help with the "supremacy" question.

Some of you are like Pilate, when he scoffed, “WHAT IS TRUTH!?”

Truth is not some fuzzy moveable idea. Jesus laid it out, and he claimed that he came to bear witness to it. Pretty clear.

Peter did not take “supremacy” or authority for himself. Jesus gave it to him. Please tell me I do not have to list the many passages here which make clear that Peter had a special and unique role in feeding the sheep, etc. If you are not very familiar with those passages, you should be reading the bible instead of this post.

No matter how many times some people read it, if they have their anti-pope lenses on, there will always be another way to understand the passages.

Jesus showed by example that the leader must be the servant.

Some people just can’t stand authority. They assume that every leader, even if his power has been given to him by others, (no pope runs for the position…he is chosen.) is an oppressive despot. This is so incredibly childish. It is typical of people who want to invent their faith as they go along…unwilling to abide in the truth and unable to recognize it when it conks them on the forehead.

Actually, I think this is exactly why people are rebelling. They DO recognize it and don’t want to be bound by it. Instead of arguing with the tenents of faith, they try to discredit it by discrediting the source of the authority.

You see, both the protestant and the catholic churches cannot hold the truth. Look at their positions on the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist. Can both be right? Are both true? Of course not.

The arguement, that started on another thread, was that our Protestant brethren have some valid gifts that Catholics should learn from, one of those being not claiming supremacy over others.

So, if you despise the catholic church so much, why are you on this forum? Go find yourself a denomination which fits your own unique version of the “truth”, and join it. Or, heck…start your own. Call it Guanophorism or something like that. If there is no objective truth, what difference does it make?

I think you have misunderstood my intentions.

What we are really talking about here… the point I am making … is that the catholic church being the Pillar and Bulwark of Truth has nothing to do with power or supremacy. It has to do with TRUTH. Understand??

I am glad you agree with the basic premise of my original post.

Please, instead of digging in your heels against authority like an immature teenager, read the scriptures and you will find the catholic church, the ONE pillar and bulwark of truth.

God love you and stay on the ship, please

cradle convert

I think you just invited me to throw myself off the ship (apparently just short of throwing me off yourself!). Now you are telling me to stay? Are you sure you want to share the ship with my ilk?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I think I just had an epiphany! I know - there are lots of differing interpretations of what that might mean.

I have been mulling over and over the issue of the certainty of Catholic Christians that their faith, their God, their Church, their Bible, their baptism are not only infallibly authoritative but also supreme wrt any other major Christian or other belief system.

I am a would-be convert, far along my spiritual journey. This matter is a huge stumbling block for me. And I have just realised why this is so.

It is not the belief itself that I object to: it is the right of every individual to hold whatever beliefs he or she chooses (within the law). Such rights are enshrined in various codes, national and international laws and conventions.

What I object to, and object to strongly, is the bigotry that is implied by this belief which denigrates other Christian denominations, and other faiths. The following quotes come from recent Forum postings:

They [those of other denominations] have faith, they love Christ, but they love Him through a false religion, a religion started by revolutionaries, not God.

He does not force His love upon those who are separated from Him. That is a modern twist of the faith that is simply false. If we choose to not love Christ, He will not force us to be with Him. Yours is a false Protestant mentality born of a modern and fallen culture that thinks all one has to do is say they love Jesus. It is ridiculous.

There IS only ONE church. The Holy Catholic Church established by Jesus Christ. That is why the “ecclesial communities” made up of every Christian outside of the one Church can not be part of that One Holy Catholic Church.

It seems as if this thread is saying it is due to the bad behaviour of past popes led to people leaving the church and forming their own churches. People still do this today.The problem with this is, these people aren’t looking at the Truth the church teaches, which cannot be argued with, but rather they are looking at the outwardly appearance of the church, which is shown through popes, bishops, priests, and members. All of these people sin, all of these people are not perfect like Jesus was.If this can be looked past, people would stay with the church, as the church holds the Truth.

Why should Christians - of whatever denomination - persist in this kind of bias? It is inappropriate, unChristian, and must inevitably be sinful - certainly in the eyes of Christ. It is irrelevant to this argument that He gave the keys to Peter.

What is relevant is how he told us to live, to work, to be; what he told us about compassion, lovingkindness and caritas; what he taught us about community and sharing, about discussing and learning.

He was a Rabbi, a Jew. Do Catholic Christians cast aspersions on His religion too?

I feel sad.

If it helps: the way I solved this issue of bigotry was to think of Catholics, not as better, but, as better off, than other Christians - there is an enormous difference: to think of oneself as better than others, involves self-praise, & is arrogant, not humble. To think of oneself as better off, makes room for one to admit that one is as one is through no excellence of one’s own - IOW, in a Christian context, it implies the reality of grace. Which implies that one is weak, helpless, needy, a beggar.​

AFAICS, there is a difference in degree, not in kind between saying one has faith in Christ, & saying one has this as a Catholic. Non-Christians don’t have faith in Christ - because that is what a non-Christian is. And yet, people don’t - or don’t usually - say it is arrogant of Christians to say they have faith in Christ; that they do, is a fact, & a grace. Having faith in Christ as a Catholic is (ISTM) no less truly a grace & (from the CC’s POV) a fact.

As to the “special status” of the CC - one can argue for this by exalting the CC (which is always wrong, through & through)

or

by exalting God (which is always right). If He chooses someone, that’s no praise to them; it is always a great mercy, for which praise is due to Him. Either way, that person is still chosen to be His - bigotry comes in only when that person translates God’s mercy to him as meaning that others, outside that person’s group, are of no account. But to appreciate the mercy of God is not bigoted, but healthy.

If this is no help, forget it

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Your arrogance and ignorance is appalling.

Oh please… some small points: pot? kettle?