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rtconstant
Guest
As my brothers have pointed out here I should have clarified that any properly baptized person is technically in the Church. I speaking more generally and probably should have made that distinction.
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Atemi
Guest
This did not answer the question I asked of rtconstant, but thanks anyway.
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Atemi
Guest
Yes.
Saying someone can be saved outside the Church cannot be accurate.
I don’t know what distinction you could have made to make that comment correct as it is always incorrect.
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davidv
Guest
Why not?
Your question was:
He answered that it is the “Catholic Church” and provided an explanation of what “outside the church” means.
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mtr01
Guest
Don’t you just love it when non-Catholics try to tell Catholics what we believe?
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djrakowski
Guest
Actualy, my post gave some background that assisted in the answering of the question. You asked if the Catholic Church teaches that nobody can be saved outside of the Church, and I answered with the paragraphs from the Catechism that explain what that means in its proper context. So I did answer the question with an official Catholic source. Please accept my apologies if that’s not good enough for you.
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
Atemi said:
The Catholic Church is Universal. What is outside ‘universal.’? Anything? No nothing.
OK then. As someone has posted before, anyone who is non-Catholic can be saved because of the existence of the Catholic Church on Earth.
Now if the Catholic Church should disappear, then all of that non-Catholic saving then comes into question. So that no one should have any doubt about this, the Holy Spirit preserves the Church from error in Magisterial teaching and specifies that the Gates of Hell shall not preside against Her.
We cannot say what God’s decision is viz the salvation of individual souls. However, we can say that those who are non-Catholic can be saved. It is possible for them to be saved. It is possible only because of the existence of the Catholic Church on Earth.
The visible One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church.
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justasking4
Guest
Is it not true that a catholic cannot be assured of salvation even if they do everything the church tells them to do?
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CThomas
Guest
As an outsider, I’m reluctant to chime in on Catholic doctrine, but this passage from one of the current Pope’s books may be instructive on the issue of Catholic thought on this subject. (I understand that it’s not authoritative doctrine in this form, but I assume the Pope knows something about these issues!)
"In this state of things, one should no longer be concerned with the salvation of ‘the others,’ who for some time now have become ‘our brothers.’ Above all, the central question is to have an intuition of the Church’s position and mission in History under a positive new point-of-view. This new point-of-view should allow one to believe in the universal offer of the grace of salvation as well as the essential part that the Church plays in this. Therefore, in this sense the problem changed.
"What concerns us is no longer how ‘the others’ will be saved. Certainly we know, by our faith in divine mercy, that they can be saved. How this happens, we leave to God. The point that does concern us is principally this: Why, despite the wider possibility of salvation, is the Church still necessary? Why should faith and life still continue to come through her? In other words, the present day Christians no longer question if their non-believer brothers can reach salvation. Overall, they desire to know what is the meaning of their union with the universal embrace of Christ and their union with the Church (Joseph Ratzinger, “Necessita della missione della Chiesa nel mondo,” in La Fine della Chiesa come Societa Perfetta, Verona: Mondatori, 1968, pp 69-70).
"In this state of things, one should no longer be concerned with the salvation of ‘the others,’ who for some time now have become ‘our brothers.’ Above all, the central question is to have an intuition of the Church’s position and mission in History under a positive new point-of-view. This new point-of-view should allow one to believe in the universal offer of the grace of salvation as well as the essential part that the Church plays in this. Therefore, in this sense the problem changed.
"What concerns us is no longer how ‘the others’ will be saved. Certainly we know, by our faith in divine mercy, that they can be saved. How this happens, we leave to God. The point that does concern us is principally this: Why, despite the wider possibility of salvation, is the Church still necessary? Why should faith and life still continue to come through her? In other words, the present day Christians no longer question if their non-believer brothers can reach salvation. Overall, they desire to know what is the meaning of their union with the universal embrace of Christ and their union with the Church (Joseph Ratzinger, “Necessita della missione della Chiesa nel mondo,” in La Fine della Chiesa come Societa Perfetta, Verona: Mondatori, 1968, pp 69-70).
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estesbob
Guest
No it is not true.
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dweebken
Guest
The Catholic Church is the only way to be sure to be saved, and then its only by living to its precepts. There are other ways, but all involve baptism of sorts (baptism by water, or baptism by fire, where a person gives up his life for the love of a friend). No-one can ever presume to know the mind of God concerning individual states of Grace, except generalities that were revealed through the scriptures and official church teachings and traditions. So there is room for non-Catholics to be saved, but if they want to be sure they’re on the right track, I believe that Catholicism is the only way.
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GandalfTheWhite
Guest
The Church doesn’t teach assurance of salvation and so you cannot know whether you’ll be saved for sure until you die UNLESS you were revealed this by God before death.
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Atemi
Guest
No I did not.
Which thread are you reading?
I actually cited what the RCC teaches. I did not ask what the RCC teaches.
Actually you didn’t, but thank you anyway…again.
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Atemi
Guest
I am sorry, but am I wrong?Don’t you just love it when non-Catholics try to tell Catholics what we believe?
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Atemi
Guest
Thank you for agreeing with me and for your support.
That was not the claim.
The claim was that someone OUTSIDE of the Body of Christ can be saved.
But not the invisible?
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GandalfTheWhite
Guest
There is no invisible Church for the Church is one.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Which is dead wrong and is not what the Catholic Church teaches. The passages from the Catechism are quite clear, but since some people have to have things spelled out to them in simplest terms, let me quote here the Compendium Catechism.
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Atemi
Guest
Really?
The Catholic Encyclopedia, with the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur of your church says:
“Christian baptism constitutes membership in the Visible Church; the state of grace, membership in the Invisible. It is obvious that one membership does not necessarily connote the other.”
newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm
I will have to assume the information on the very well established and respected Encyclopedia is superior to your own.
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rtconstant
Guest
Ah, see there is the problem. You should have been asking or at least have been listening as you were instructed in what we actually believe. If you had been doing either of those then we could have closed this thread.
Actually yes he did. You’ve been the recipient of rather well phrased explanations. Read them and then you won’t have to argue this anymore.
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rtconstant
Guest
The “Invisible” is the Church in Heaven or the Church Victorious.
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