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DictatorCzar
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So I’ve been researching about catholcism. There was a video saying that Roman Catholicism came from a mixture between original Christianity and Roman theology. I don’t know so can anyone help me.
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ZMystiCat
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The Roman Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ, as the bishops are the successors of the Apostles of Christ. Now there are aspects of practice such as vestments, titles, and language that were borrowed from Roman culture, but the theology has remained true to what Christ taught and what the Apostles handed down, and the early Church Fathers vehemently made that case.
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DictatorCzar
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In the video, it claimed that there is no evidence of papal authority, apostlistic succession, infant baptism. Papal authority and apostolic succession is confusing. But infant baptism i get it. Whole households were baptized. It also said that there is no evidence to pray to saints and worship Mary.
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ziapueblo
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We have to remeber that Catholicism is not synonymous for Roman Catholic. The early Church consisted of the 5 ancient patriarchal sees; Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. These Churches, east and west, had their own liturgical practice, theology and patrimony. All united in the same faith although expressed differently.
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DictatorCzar
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I feel like the Orthodox Church is left out of this whole idea.
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Wesrock
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Apostolic succession is quite clearly addressed in the literature of the early church fathers, even the ante-Nicene period.
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AugustineFanNYC
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I noticed your list includes Mormonism too. I’ve been noticing this as a trend now where Mormonism is always being included in the various Christian denominations. Why? Mormonism’s theology bears no resemblance to Christian theology whether Catholic or Protestant.
I’ve been seeing a lot of Mormon eccumenalism among Protestants especially. Glenn Beck would go on the 700 Club and Pat Robertson would never ask him about Mormonism. He’d just assume he was a born again Christian too.
Does this happen in Catholic circles too? I’ve delved deep into Mormon theology and it’s outright heresy.
I’ve been seeing a lot of Mormon eccumenalism among Protestants especially. Glenn Beck would go on the 700 Club and Pat Robertson would never ask him about Mormonism. He’d just assume he was a born again Christian too.
Does this happen in Catholic circles too? I’ve delved deep into Mormon theology and it’s outright heresy.
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ZMystiCat
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Well that person clearly hasn’t read a single early-church document. As an example, this article offers numerous quotes on apostolic succession. It’s even written into the Nicene Creed’s portion about “one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church”.
Mary was still alive during the first century. No one was going to pray to her then, but we already see evidence of the coming veneration of her in the way the Archangel Gabriel and Elizabeth, moved by the Holy Spirit, spoke of her. The latter is of particular note in that it signifies that the Holy Spirit would move us to venerate her, and we’ve continued to repeat the words spoken by Elizabeth every time we say the Hail Mary.
We also have at least one surviving prayer to her, the Sub Tuum Praesidium, that may date back as early as the third century. Of course, the Hail Mary, or at least the first part, is even older, dating back to the first century and recorded in Scripture.
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PaulfromIowa
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Yes, many Westerners just know Catholic and Protestant. Many know nothing of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches.
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AlNg
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Eight billion dollars seems like a lot of money. But it is a small amount relative to the amount that the Americans have spent on their wars in Iraq and Afghanistan which is about 2.4 trillion dollars.
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ziapueblo
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Your right. The Orthodox churches are “True Churches!”
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Lee1
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I don’t see how it’s possible for all Christians to give away their possessions and live a life reliant on the charity of others. I think a small number of people could do it but not millions, society couldn’t support them all.
As for the Church, it needs to support so much that the amount of money you say may be in the bank is not a great deal I’m sure.
As for the Church, it needs to support so much that the amount of money you say may be in the bank is not a great deal I’m sure.
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EXdrinker
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That idea is an interesting take on this bible verse. Jesus, speaking to an individual on what that person should do, is then applied to a country. In other verses Jesus seemed to allow for support of institutions (i.e. paying the temple tax and rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar’s). How do you determine that countries should not have $8b in operating capital? How much should a country have? How much should an individual have? What is Christ like on this and who determines that?
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neophyte
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PapyrusDouay
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Kind of. Most Protestant apologetics I’ve seen disregards the Orthodox, which I suppose makes sense, since Protestantism came about as a “Protest” to Catholicism, not Orthodox.
But Ziapueblo mentioned the 5 original Patriarchates. Which is important.
Anyone can feel free to correct me if I’ve make a mistake. I’m going by memory:
The Patriarch of Rome still exists. That position and See was founded by Saint Peter, and we know him as the Pope. He is the head of Catholic Church, and traditionally first among equals for all Sees/Patriarchates, especially before the Schosms.
The Patriarch of Constantinople still exists as well. This See was founded by Peter’s brother, Saint Andrew, which today is Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, and that See is the Greek Orthodox Church, and since the Schism, he has been the first-among-equals in all Eastern Orthodox Patriarchs.
The Patriarch of Alexandria still exists too. The See of Alexandria was founded by Saint Mark, and the current successor of St. Mark is Pope Shenouda III. He leads the Coptic Orthodox Church, which is Oriental Orthodox. Oriental Orthodox is distinct from both Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism. It formed in a Schism that preceded the East-West Schism by over half a millennium.
I’m not as clear on the history of the other two Sees. At least not enough to write about it now. I’ll try to read up on them if I have a chance
But regardless, although we often forget about them in the West, the Orthodox are still very much part of the original Church and have maintained a succession going back to the Apostles. All three were founded by Apostles, and lead by their successors, but slit from eachother over the last 2000 years due to some doctrinal and cultural differences. Overall, they all have more commonalities than diffences. And interestingly, it seems that most of the issues a lot of modern Protestant literature takes with Catholicism, are issues that could also be taken up with all Churches founded by Apostles…fancy vestments, liturgical Mass/Divine Liturgy , Real Presence, ‘extra’ books in the Old Testament based on the Septuagint, and Seven Sacraments.
But Ziapueblo mentioned the 5 original Patriarchates. Which is important.
Anyone can feel free to correct me if I’ve make a mistake. I’m going by memory:
The Patriarch of Rome still exists. That position and See was founded by Saint Peter, and we know him as the Pope. He is the head of Catholic Church, and traditionally first among equals for all Sees/Patriarchates, especially before the Schosms.
The Patriarch of Constantinople still exists as well. This See was founded by Peter’s brother, Saint Andrew, which today is Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, and that See is the Greek Orthodox Church, and since the Schism, he has been the first-among-equals in all Eastern Orthodox Patriarchs.
The Patriarch of Alexandria still exists too. The See of Alexandria was founded by Saint Mark, and the current successor of St. Mark is Pope Shenouda III. He leads the Coptic Orthodox Church, which is Oriental Orthodox. Oriental Orthodox is distinct from both Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism. It formed in a Schism that preceded the East-West Schism by over half a millennium.
I’m not as clear on the history of the other two Sees. At least not enough to write about it now. I’ll try to read up on them if I have a chance
But regardless, although we often forget about them in the West, the Orthodox are still very much part of the original Church and have maintained a succession going back to the Apostles. All three were founded by Apostles, and lead by their successors, but slit from eachother over the last 2000 years due to some doctrinal and cultural differences. Overall, they all have more commonalities than diffences. And interestingly, it seems that most of the issues a lot of modern Protestant literature takes with Catholicism, are issues that could also be taken up with all Churches founded by Apostles…fancy vestments, liturgical Mass/Divine Liturgy , Real Presence, ‘extra’ books in the Old Testament based on the Septuagint, and Seven Sacraments.
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Fauken
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The mission of the Catholic Church is simple. The sanctification of souls.
Are you going to ignore the hundreds of Catholic hospitals, universities, charities, and religious orders that work around the globe, around the clock to serve the poor? Acting as if the Catholic Church leaves people starving on the streets while we do nothing on our golden thrones despite the charitable efforts of the Church throughout the centuries is dishonest.
You also misunderstand the purpose of a church in Catholicism. Yes, you can pray to God in a church, in the woods, and even on your toilet. A church is not the woods nor is it your home. The woods are meant house animals and plants. Your home is where you live. A Catholic church is God’s house in every sense of the word: it is where God in the Eucharist is. This building is set apart from others for the worship of God. It is the separation of the sacred from the profane. You would not aliken Jesus to a tree or a normal person, neither should a church be viewed as such. It should not look like your house or the woods. Can I assume then that you would welcome Jesus into your house by letting Him sleep on your floor instead of your bed, and let Him eat off of the same floor using his hands and paper plates, despite having better accommodations at your disposal? I doubt you’d say yes. Why then should the Catholic Church serve Jesus in such a manner when we’re clearly able to serve the poor and Him?
Are you going to ignore the hundreds of Catholic hospitals, universities, charities, and religious orders that work around the globe, around the clock to serve the poor? Acting as if the Catholic Church leaves people starving on the streets while we do nothing on our golden thrones despite the charitable efforts of the Church throughout the centuries is dishonest.
You also misunderstand the purpose of a church in Catholicism. Yes, you can pray to God in a church, in the woods, and even on your toilet. A church is not the woods nor is it your home. The woods are meant house animals and plants. Your home is where you live. A Catholic church is God’s house in every sense of the word: it is where God in the Eucharist is. This building is set apart from others for the worship of God. It is the separation of the sacred from the profane. You would not aliken Jesus to a tree or a normal person, neither should a church be viewed as such. It should not look like your house or the woods. Can I assume then that you would welcome Jesus into your house by letting Him sleep on your floor instead of your bed, and let Him eat off of the same floor using his hands and paper plates, despite having better accommodations at your disposal? I doubt you’d say yes. Why then should the Catholic Church serve Jesus in such a manner when we’re clearly able to serve the poor and Him?
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Fauken
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Sanctifying them does exactly that. Sanctification is turning people into Saints. There is no greater way to be unified to God than to be a Saint in heaven.
Like what, exactly? Having the Catholic Church sell its assets and effectively make it go bankrupt would do what? The vast majority of wealth the Church has isn’t golden thrones or vestments, but land. Land that monasteries, convents, hospitals and many more things sit on. If you can’t pay for the land, you loose it. And land can be very expensive. Not to mention the upkeep for old buildings so they aren’t ruined, loans taken out to build things, etc. So we ruin the very hospitals and orders that take care of the poor. For what? Another hospital? Feeding people for a year while ripping the charities that try and get them to support themselves on their own out from under their feet? The numbers do not add up.
The Catholic Church is more than just a charity. Our primary job here is not the care of the poor. It doesn’t matter how many hungry we feed or sick we cure if our service to God is lacking. Non-Catholics are capable of charity to the poor and sick. There’s nothing we do in charity that non-Catholics can’t. Alone, charity to the poor and sick does not a Catholic make, and if we base our claim, or any religion’s claim, on that, then there is really nothing that separates us as the true Church, and the same goes for other churches. Do you understand what I mean by that? Basically, if your criticism of the veracity of the Catholic Church as the true Church of God is based on what more she could do in charity, then you are missing the forest for the trees. You are looking at an unsubstantiated maybe of one small part of the Church while ignoring what even the Church considers to be more important.
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Fauken
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Jesus was more than a wise man, He’s God. And He’s right on both accounts. But it should be noted that He said to love God first followed by loving your neighbor as yourself.
What do you mean “people do what they do” in church?
May He show you that the Catholic Church does indeed contain the fullness of truth!
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ziapueblo
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There are five patriarchs of Antioch: Ignatius Aphrem II of the Syriac Orthodox Church, John X Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch, Ignatius Joseph III Yonan Syriac Catholic Church, Youssef Absi Melkite Greek Catholic Church whose full title is Patriarch of Antioch and All the East, of Alexandria and Jerusalem and Bechara Boutros al-Rahi Maronite Catholic Church.
There are a couple of more patriarchs of Alexandria: Patriarch Theodore II of Alexandria (Greek Orthodox), Ibrahim Isaac Sidrak Coptic Catholic Patriarch of Alexandria and Youssef Absi Melkite Greek Catholic Church.
As far as Jerusalem we have Patriarch Theophilos III of Jerusalemof the Greek Orthodox Church and again Youssef Absi Melkite Greek Catholic Church.
Hope that helps.
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Catholicwife32
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That is the Protestant view, yes. They believe that Christianity got mixed in with paganism when it went from being an underground religion to the official religion of the Roman State. Certainly, the Romans saw religious offerings to pagan gods and even to their human leaders as key elements to securing a stable and functioning government. Christianity created complications because people refused to commit adultery. For whatever reason, it was considered worse than Judaism. Maybe it was the whole Kingdom of God belief thing.
As such, the idea is that the Roman Empire declared Christianity their official religion and then changed their pagan forms of worship into Christian forms of worship, thus paganizing Christianity. As such, there was an attempt to remove paganism from Christianity, but getting at the history of what Christianity looked like before the 4th century is very difficult. Honestly, it makes little sense as the first counsel of Nicea was called by the Roman Emperor and Protestants, whether they know their history or not, accept the Christology that came out of that counsel.
If you want an atheist perspective on Christian history, Christianity was a cult with many factions and little agreement over what it taught. It was highly popular though and screwing with Roman politics. So they tried to stablize Rome by giving the Christian religious leaders power, then they got upset at the inconsistency of teachings and the emperor called a counsel to have the theology of who Christ was settled. And the Roman Empire was big on killing heretics. Oh, and then there’s book burning to stop the spread of heresy.
Those who view the Church as a dead institution, a relic if you were, that gets corrupted with time, inevitably have to recognize that searching for it leads to atheism. Either Christianity is a living institution that must be cultivated. A progressive view that does not see the need to tend the garden and a conservative view that is so afraid of the weeds they uproot the good plants with the weeds are problematic views. Even within Catholicism, people fall into these errors of extremes. Catholicism teaches that the authority of the bishops and priests is apostolic, divinely given. And it teaches that it contains the fullness of the Faith/the fullness of Truth.
As such, the idea is that the Roman Empire declared Christianity their official religion and then changed their pagan forms of worship into Christian forms of worship, thus paganizing Christianity. As such, there was an attempt to remove paganism from Christianity, but getting at the history of what Christianity looked like before the 4th century is very difficult. Honestly, it makes little sense as the first counsel of Nicea was called by the Roman Emperor and Protestants, whether they know their history or not, accept the Christology that came out of that counsel.
If you want an atheist perspective on Christian history, Christianity was a cult with many factions and little agreement over what it taught. It was highly popular though and screwing with Roman politics. So they tried to stablize Rome by giving the Christian religious leaders power, then they got upset at the inconsistency of teachings and the emperor called a counsel to have the theology of who Christ was settled. And the Roman Empire was big on killing heretics. Oh, and then there’s book burning to stop the spread of heresy.
Those who view the Church as a dead institution, a relic if you were, that gets corrupted with time, inevitably have to recognize that searching for it leads to atheism. Either Christianity is a living institution that must be cultivated. A progressive view that does not see the need to tend the garden and a conservative view that is so afraid of the weeds they uproot the good plants with the weeds are problematic views. Even within Catholicism, people fall into these errors of extremes. Catholicism teaches that the authority of the bishops and priests is apostolic, divinely given. And it teaches that it contains the fullness of the Faith/the fullness of Truth.
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