Is the Catholic God Holy enough?

  • Thread starter Thread starter thinkandmull
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

thinkandmull

Guest
I’ve been reading about different religions lately, and a video I saw showed Gregorian chants and a Latin Mass among video shots of other religions. Now I know Vatican II allowed other religion’s musical themes and styles to a certain extent and I think I may be ok with that. Anyway, what this all got me thinking of was the holiness of God and whether Christianity really gives the most reverence in doctrine to the God’s sanctity. I had a thread called Holiness??? awhile back, this this is much more complete (also since I was satisfied that my question was answered).

Would not God be a holier God if, because of His sanctity, there could not be exist:
  1. Disorder or pain in innocent things
  2. sin (that’s a huge one)
  3. things happening contrary to nature
  4. people enjoying sin
  5. torture and mockery of God in human form
  6. even reaching towards the ark to stabilize it
  7. God becoming human when others of that species had sinned
  8. People in Heaven now seeing the Beatific Vision in a torn state of nature (without bodies)
  9. sinful reception of communion
  10. God indirectly sustains evil done
  11. Pregnancys from adultery and artificial insemination
Suppose someone claimed that the world is nothing, and that God has nothing to do with nothing, but that there is order and apparent goodness in the world because even nothing bends itself to God. Wouldn’t this person have a case against us and be able to say “your God is not all that Holy”

That is what I am wrestling with, not silly arguments on whether the divine exists.
 
thinkandmull said:
I’ve been reading about different religions lately, and a video I saw showed Gregorian chants and a Latin Mass among video shots of other religions. Now I know Vatican II allowed other religion’s musical themes and styles to a certain extent and I think I may be ok with that. Anyway, what this all got me thinking of was the holiness of God and whether Christianity really gives the most reverence in doctrine to the God’s sanctity. I had a thread called Holiness??? awhile back, this this is much more complete (also since I was satisfied that my question was answered).

Would not God be a holier God if, because of His sanctity, there could not be exist:
  1. Disorder or pain in innocent things
  2. sin (that’s a huge one)
  3. things happening contrary to nature
  4. people enjoying sin
  5. torture and mockery of God in human form
  6. even reaching towards the ark to stabilize it
  7. God becoming human when others of that species had sinned
  8. People in Heaven now seeing the Beatific Vision in a torn state of nature (without bodies)
  9. sinful reception of communion
  10. God indirectly sustains evil done
  11. Pregnancys from adultery and artificial insemination
Suppose someone claimed that the world is nothing, and that God has nothing to do with nothing, but that there is order and apparent goodness in the world because even nothing bends itself to God. Wouldn’t this person have a case against us and be able to say “your God is not all that Holy”

That is what I am wrestling with, not silly arguments on whether the divine exists.
Click to expand...
Holiness means being like God. God is the standard of holiness. His holiness is perfect. Perfection cannot be improved upon.

If anyone claims god can be holier, they are speaking of a false god.
 
davidv said:
Holiness means being like God. God is the standard of holiness. His holiness is perfect. Perfection cannot be improved upon.

If anyone claims god can be holier, they are speaking of a false god.
Click to expand...
Agreed! How can God be God and not be completely Holy, sacred, worthy of worship. Can anything, or human condition alter His Being or Sacredness. God can not be holier than His is, He is Holiness, to be holy is to be like God, the more one is like God the holier he is. The Catholic God is Perfectly Holy, containing all holiness.
 
Ok. But I’m trying to see how we can understand this God. If I push idea or sense of the idea “holiness” and “sacred” to its infinite max, its not consistent with the 11 things listed in my first post. It can be said that God is so good that He allows things for greater goods, but that means the idea of His sacredness is lowered in order to make room for the idea of an understanding good.

I just don’t see how all the attributes of qualities we see in humans can be attributed to God as one. It almost makes more sense to say there is a Sacred God and another Good God
 
thinkandmull said:
Ok. But I’m trying to see how we can understand this God. If I push idea or sense of the idea “holiness” and “sacred” to its infinite max, its not consistent with the 11 things listed in my first post. It can be said that God is so good that He allows things for greater goods, but that means the idea of His sacredness is lowered in order to make room for the idea of an understanding good.

I just don’t see how all the attributes of qualities we see in humans can be attributed to God as one. It almost makes more sense to say there is a Sacred God and another Good God
Click to expand...
How can any of the items on your list be attributed to God? None of them diminish God.
 
There is only one God.
And he is all good, all loving, and all merciful.
Your question makes no sense.
 
Maybe you should ask some of these points individually. Eleven in one post is quite a lot to cover fully regardless of the topics. If you really want a full answer for each, please prepare to do some reading.

In particular you can find a great deal of detailed information on the Catholic Encyclopedia. Answering these questions requires one to know the nature of God, holiness, evil, sin, redemption, free will, culpability etc. and there you can find a detailed analysis of each complete with summaries and comparisons of the varying beliefs people have on those matters.
It’s a lot of reading, but I hope you will find it interesting.
For a thorough answer regarding the existence of pain and sin I suggest reading C.S. Lewis’ The Problem of Pain
You are neither the first nor the last who will wrestle with these questions. I only hope you will pursue the truth of the matter and not settle for anything less. Please forgive us Catholics who are not quite deft enough in speech to explain everything well in an internet forum.

I’ll try to answer the eleventh one.
We believe adultery and artificial insemination are wrong. Our sins however do not limit the goodness God can still bring about. The resulting pregnancies are a prime example of this. This does not negate the seriousness of our offenses, but it does emphasize God’s mercy and power.
Also, please note the child conceived is neither at fault nor less valuable based upon how he or she was conceived or the sins of the parents. That being said, why would it be better if these children did not exist?
Have you ever heard the concept of Christianity where God will “make you new”? It’s not so much God requires the evil to happen to make things better. We fail and if we let Him, God is so holy He has the power to step in and not just make things right, but make things better than before. In this case a living person is brought into existence with a soul. It’s pretty incredible when you think about it.

I know this does not answer your overarching question. In other words are you asking why does God give us free will? And does giving us free will negate God’s goodness? It sounds like you are but I’m not sure. Again maybe you should post those questions individually.
 
👍:clapping:👍
davidv said:
Holiness means being like God. God is the standard of holiness. His holiness is perfect. Perfection cannot be improved upon.

If anyone claims god can be holier, they are speaking of a false god.
Click to expand...
:clapping:👍:clapping:
 
thinkandmull said:
Ok. But I’m trying to see how we can understand this God. If I push idea or sense of the idea “holiness” and “sacred” to its infinite max, its not consistent with the 11 things listed in my first post. It can be said that God is so good that He allows things for greater goods, but that means the idea of His sacredness is lowered in order to make room for the idea of an understanding good.
Click to expand...
It seems that what you are doing (and many do this) is to project our limitations in understanding onto God.

How can limited man, “push idea or sense of the idea ‘holiness’ and ‘sacred’ to its infinite max”? The answer of course is that we cannot.

I suggest that what is happening is that you have pushed it as far as you are able…and found some (as you see them) inconsistencies.
Yet the problem here is not some problem with God’s Sanctity or perfection etc. Rather the problem is with our ability to understand.
I just don’t see how all the attributes of qualities we see in humans can be attributed to God as one.
Click to expand...
Again - this is a matter of humans projecting onto God. Not an issue with God himself.
We cannot understand God in His fullness. To try to explain God we use similes and metaphors and other devices that we as humans can understand. Sometimes these don’t quite fit together perfectly - but it is due to our own limitations - not God’s.
It almost makes more sense to say there is a Sacred God and another Good God
Click to expand...
You need to reject this thought out of hand. Seriously…There is one God.

Peace
James
 
thinkandmull said:
Ok. But I’m trying to see how we can understand this God. If I push idea or sense of the idea “holiness” and “sacred” to its infinite max, its not consistent with the 11 things listed in my first post. It can be said that God is so good that He allows things for greater goods, but that means the idea of His sacredness is lowered in order to make room for the idea of an understanding good.

I just don’t see how all the attributes of qualities we see in humans can be attributed to God as one. It almost makes more sense to say there is a Sacred God and another Good God
Click to expand...
Attributes are ascribed to , or assigned to us by God who is their source. Attributes are so many shades of goodness, in humans they are individual, and vary in degree. Because God is Pure Being and Goodness, He is their source and they are one in Him. He is Simple, not composed or created as we are. He has no individuating qualities or degrees of qualities, He gives quality to things which take their origin from Him because He imparts being to things. What exists is called good because it has being, He is also Perfection, the degree of excellence we possess is a share in His perfection In human language we can not comprehend or express these concepts adequately after all we are talking about God, finite minds trying to comprehend the Infinite Mind, God.
 
There is one thing the OP in on to here, the number of people who are truly happy and content while sinning over and over, and living without God in their lives…this should never happen, but it does, I see many people like this, if God is all he is supposed to be, then these people should not exist.
 
mikekle said:
There is one thing the OP in on to here, the number of people who are truly happy and content while sinning over and over, and living without God in their lives…this should never happen, but it does, I see many people like this, if God is all he is supposed to be, then these people should not exist.
Click to expand...
If God eliminated, or did not create people because they are sinners, none of us would exist. We are all sinners. Even repentant sinners can sin again. God can not create an infallible human, they are limited, dependent and fallible, infallliblty or impecability (incapable of sinning) would mean that there would be no free will in humans. Infallibility belongs to God alone, and God alone is incapable of sinning. It is the will of God that fallible humans exist with free will, and with co-operation with the graces of God humans can be good, and even holy. With God all things are possible. I wouldn’t consider people to be truly happy while sinning, they are being deceived into believing that what they are doing is happiness. Man was created for union with God, that is his ultimate end and happiness, and nothing can change that, it’s in his nature, anything less is an illusion.
 
An essential part of the definition of God is COMPLETE Holiness.

To think in terms of “holy enough” implies that enough is OK, but there could be more. And a God less than Catholic God might not even be holy enough.

But God is God. We cannot completely understand Him. We know some and accept the rest on FAITH. Many chose to learn little about God and some reject Him and thus blame Him for sin in the world.

We also forget that the Devil exists. He entices each of us to blame God for the sins we commit. Sin is never our fault and certainly not as a result of temptations by the Devil. Or so the Devil would have us believe.

We forget that God gave each of us Free Will. We have it in our power to pray for God’s Grace and Guidance. Or not.

We are Free to love God. Free to live as best we can according to His expectations. Grateful for the Sacrament of Reconciliation when we fail. Or not.

If God were to prevent us from sinning, we would no longer have Freedom He gave us. If we do not have Freedom, how can we love God?
 
Aquinas said that God sometimes grants demons the ability to assume bodies and have sex with humans to create a half-human half-demon offspring. The Old Catholic Encyclopedia said its unfortunate that he thought that but it was common in that era. But surely that would be against the sacrality of God
 
thinkandmull said:
Aquinas said that God sometimes grants demons the ability to assume bodies and have sex with humans to create a half-human half-demon offspring. The Old Catholic Encyclopedia said its unfortunate that he thought that but it was common in that era. But surely that would be against the sacrality of God
Click to expand...
How so?

God granted us free will, by which we can chose to sin. The sin diminishes us, but does not diminish God.
 
thinkandmull said:
Aquinas said that God sometimes grants demons the ability to assume bodies and have sex with humans to create a half-human half-demon offspring. The Old Catholic Encyclopedia said its unfortunate that he thought that but it was common in that era. But surely that would be against the sacrality of God
Click to expand...
Please give this reference, as it is unknown to me. Fallen angels (demons) can assume human form as experienced by some saints (Padre Pio for one) We do have diabolical possession of bodies, and only of the soul if the person gives consent (as Judas did) But to have sex with a human and create a half-human half-demon is impossible for the simple truth that the soul is created directly by God. Satan can not create, nor can he take over someone’s will without consent. He is a master deceiver for the truth is not in him, Jesus called him a liar and a murderer, everything he is is sustained by God. He is like us in that respect, in ourselves we are nothing, and everything we are or have was given to us by God. To know this is to be established in the truth. Satan is nothing in himself also, he misuses God’s gifts against God and us. He is doomed to contradiction for eternity.
 
Its in Aquinas’s treatise of angels. How can God grant the ability to assume a body to a devil that doesn’t already have that ability? Would that God be Holy?
 
ynotzap said:
If God eliminated, or did not create people because they are sinners, none of us would exist. We are all sinners. Even repentant sinners can sin again. God can not create an infallible human, they are limited, dependent and fallible, infallliblty or impecability (incapable of sinning) would mean that there would be no free will in humans. Infallibility belongs to God alone, and God alone is incapable of sinning. It is the will of God that fallible humans exist with free will, and with co-operation with the graces of God humans can be good, and even holy. With God all things are possible. I wouldn’t consider people to be truly happy while sinning, they are being deceived into believing that what they are doing is happiness. Man was created for union with God, that is his ultimate end and happiness, and nothing can change that, it’s in his nature, anything less is an illusion.
Click to expand...
“God can not create an infallible human” Mary?
 
This is not about what good God can produce out of pain or evil. I just don’t see how the element of Sacredness in God allows the 12 things I’ve listed in this thread to ever have been. I believe in God, but what does it mean to say my idea of His holiness goes a little to far so I pull back on that one and emphasize another quality. The Aquinas idea of “all good applies to God, although he is so far beyond He is more unlike it than like any of those things” doesn’t seen to be helpful anymore
 
Mary nor any being other than God is infallible. Mary was conceived without Original Sin for God’s purpose. but she still retained her freedom of will. She made the choice to the Angel Gabriel that she accepted the will of God. “Let it be done unto me according to thy will…” In her Magnificat she said " My soul rejoices in God my Savior, for He has regarded the lowliness of His handmaid…" Why would she say the God, My Savior if she didn’t need saving, by His graces. She was filled with grace, didn’t sin, yet she referred to God as her Savior. To be infallible is to be free from error, not capable of making mistakes. To do this one has to be Omniscient and only God knows everything, He created everything and sustains it. The Pope was guaranteed infallibility by Jesus. The Pope personally is not infallible, he is like us in every way. When acting with authority from the Chair, we believe that he is endowed with the gift of infallibility, and has supernatural help granted by God, in order to insure that the Church will not err when teaching faith and morals. No human is infallible, he has a fallible nature, limited, finite, dependent and capable of making mistakes. When Mary sought Jesus, and found Him in the temple teaching at the age of l3 or so.she told Him that they were seeking him, and He said “Did you not know that I must be about My Father’s business?” Mary also experienced the limitations of knowledge, if she was infallible she would have known. She acknowledged her fallibility. I covered this in another thread
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top