Is the Catholic God Holy enough?

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thinkandmull said:
Its in Aquinas’s treatise of angels. How can God grant the ability to assume a body to a devil that doesn’t already have that ability? Would that God be Holy?
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We must remember that things can only happen if God allows it to happen. God’s providence reigns over creation. If a person is possessed God allowed it. Angels have the power to affect material things, this is why people can be led to believe that they have special powers like telekenisis, ESP, clairvoyance, etc. In this way people can be led to believing in false gods, (against the First Commandment, ) and believe they have some undiscovered power in themselves. Some of the saints were affected by physical harassment and beatings from demons. But with God’s grace the saints defeated these fallen angels which is a miracle in itself. Angel are far superior to men in their nature, and powers. God through humans can humiliate them. He can take the weak and defeat the strong in every way! Who is like God!! All things are possible to Him. He can take a sick and handicapped society and make it beautiful, but not without societies consent. He will not force Himself on anyone. Love is freely given by God, we need to give God our love freely.
 
ynotzap said:
Mary nor any being other than God is infallible. Mary was conceived without Original Sin for God’s purpose. but she still retained her freedom of will. She made the choice to the Angel Gabriel that she accepted the will of God. “Let it be done unto me according to thy will…” In her Magnificat she said " My soul rejoices in God my Savior, for He has regarded the lowliness of His handmaid…" Why would she say the God, My Savior if she didn’t need saving, by His graces. She was filled with grace, didn’t sin, yet she referred to God as her Savior. To be infallible is to be free from error, not capable of making mistakes. To do this one has to be Omniscient and only God knows everything, He created everything and sustains it. The Pope was guaranteed infallibility by Jesus. The Pope personally is not infallible, he is like us in every way. When acting with authority from the Chair, we believe that he is endowed with the gift of infallibility, and has supernatural help granted by God, in order to insure that the Church will not err when teaching faith and morals. No human is infallible, he has a fallible nature, limited, finite, dependent and capable of making mistakes. When Mary sought Jesus, and found Him in the temple teaching at the age of l3 or so.she told Him that they were seeking him, and He said “Did you not know that I must be about My Father’s business?” Mary also experienced the limitations of knowledge, if she was infallible she would have known. She acknowledged her fallibility. I covered this in another thread
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Well we say the Popes infallible when he makes up his mind to speak to us all. Maybe Mary was infallible after she put her mind to consider something
 
thinkandmull said:
Well we say the Popes infallible when he makes up his mind to speak to us all. Maybe Mary was infallible after she put her mind to consider something
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It doesn’t work that way. When the teaching body of the Church with the Pope as it’s head use all their human resources to define a doctrine, then it’s up to the Pope to declare it to the faithful. Before declaring it there is prayer asking God to guide it. It is then that the Pope steps out in faith believing in the words of Jesus Christ to be with His Church. These words were addressed to Peter who Jesus appointed as His representative on earth, and the Pope represents Jesus through the unbroken chain of Popes since the time of Peter, the first Pope. Infallibility is a supernatural gift endowed at the time of proclamation, the Pope didn’t just make up his mind, it’s a matter of faith in the promises of Jesus Christ, God-man. Mary was not gifted with infallibility, to be the representative of Jesus here on earth. She was not appointed to this position. Although she was gifted with an abundance of grace and she was enlightened, so she could know the truths of Church doctrine, but even so, Jesus did not give her the position of Pope, this was left to Peter, the Head of the Apostles.
 
I just don’t see any evidence that Mary ever erred in her mind on a matter of faith,

On the subject of this forum, maybe we need a better understanding of God. For example, how can our present concept of God be of Someone good, since He never had the opportunity to choose good vs something else??
 
thinkandmull said:
I just don’t see any evidence that Mary ever erred in her mind on a matter of faith,
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What does this have to do with God being holy?
On the subject of this forum, maybe we need a better understanding of God. For example, how can our present concept of God be of Someone good, since He never had the opportunity to choose good vs something else??
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In the person of Jesus, when He was tempted in the desert to choose evil over good, He did not.
 
God is unfathomable, while we have one or two good reasons to do something, He can see infinitely into the future and see all the good that comes from all he allows even what is evil. God can bring to good all that is evil. Even what appears as if it would have been better to be avoided to us. Death is not the end and the infinite futures of every soul gives God the time to repay all justice and injustices.

Human natural law ethics tells us that the ends do not justify the means, but this is in actively doing evil. This is why God can not directly do evil, but in having a world that produces its own evil from out of our free will he can choose to correct this at His own discretion. This choice is perfect, but perfection does not require it be instantaneous. Thus, we are assured that all suffering is to be transformed into a better good than what we might imagine and might wish for by instant relief of all suffering.

This is Holy, and what we might wish be the most holy is not; for our knowledge of God is not great enough to be judge of His actions. The scope of eternity and what is to be for any or all souls is not in evidence, but must be included as evidence in any judgement of God. Thus, we have proof that man cannot justly be in judgement of God nor council Him on what might be most Holy.
 
wmw said:
God is unfathomable, while we have one or two good reasons to do something, He can see infinitely into the future and see all the good that comes from all he allows even what is evil. God can bring to good all that is evil. Even what appears as if it would have been better to be avoided to us. Death is not the end and the infinite futures of every soul gives God the time to repay all justice and injustices.

Human natural law ethics tells us that the ends do not justify the means, but this is in actively doing evil. This is why God can not directly do evil, but in having a world that produces its own evil from out of our free will he can choose to correct this at His own discretion. This choice is perfect, but perfection does not require it be instantaneous. Thus, we are assured that all suffering is to be transformed into a better good than what we might imagine and might wish for by instant relief of all suffering.

This is Holy, and what we might wish be the most holy is not; for our knowledge of God is not great enough to be judge of His actions. The scope of eternity and what is to be for any or all souls is not in evidence, but must be included as evidence in any judgement of God. Thus, we have proof that man cannot justly be in judgement of God nor council Him on what might be most Holy.
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My one suggestion would be to read, in depth, the Catholic doctrine regarding predestination. Much of what you wrote may give you pause.

John
 
oldcelt said:
My one suggestion would be to read, in depth, the Catholic doctrine regarding predestination. Much of what you wrote may give you pause.

John
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Our future is a cooperation or noncooperation between God and ourselves. He knows our choices, but doesn’t mandate them. God can give all the right graces in all the right places and still a soul may say “no”. I see no “pause” to take with predestination. Why do you?
 
Jesus is not God the Father and the Holy Ghost, nor was it possible for Him to sin by temptation. And His humanity was not necessary to His Divinity

We can see a baby, see its innocent goodness, and understand this as a reflection of God. But how can we see virtue, won by many battles, as expressing God? With deep respect, can we not wonder “this Divinity has never worked a day in His life, does not know what it is like to be tempted and yet not give in”. Jesus’s humanity and its acts to not alter this Divine Nature, nor was it possible for Him to sin.

Was it possible for Mary to end up in Hell? If not, why was she good?
 
thinkandmull said:
Jesus is not God the Father and the Holy Ghost, nor was it possible for Him to sin by temptation. And His humanity was not necessary to His Divinity

We can see a baby, see its innocent goodness, and understand this as a reflection of God. But how can we see virtue, won by many battles, as expressing God? With deep respect, can we not wonder “this Divinity has never worked a day in His life, does not know what it is like to be tempted and yet not give in”. Jesus’s humanity and its acts to not alter this Divine Nature, nor was it possible for Him to sin.

Was it possible for Mary to end up in Hell? If not, why was she good?
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Do you have a source for this non-sense?
 
Source for what? I am just asking questions people should wonder about. On one hand it seems like idolatry to worship God if he is just virtue itself, instead of having virtue from an action.
 
There were only one line of questions. The four before that totally antithetical.
 
I think I’m understanding how God can be Good without having the opportunity of being evil. For a human, an action is not necessarily more virtuous if it is hard to do. It has to do with the subtlety of beautiful good will in the will as acting. God has that to perfection…
 
On the other side of the world, good choices still imply options to choose from. For worship of Virtue itself not to be idolatry, its seeming to me that there must have been some choices between good and evil before God, His essence coming from this choice. :eek: Its revolutionary I know, but I think orthodox still. I talked about this once before in a post
 
See, you seem to be trying to say a lot, but what is communicated is nothing.

For example one of the more clear phrases:
“an action is not necessarily more virtuous if it is hard to do”

Yet, what does “hard” mean?
  1. Perceived to be against the “human’s” own wants maybe even self-sacrificial?
  2. A feat of great athletic or intellectual effort?
  3. A “hard” choice because it is unclear the act will actually result in a virtuous outcome.
So, even this seemingly simple phrase isn’t saying anything and it is surounded by even worse phrases; therefore, context of it all is lost.

I’m beginning to believe you are earnest in attempting to say far too much.
Please say one thing, but really make it clear.
 
My concern and thoughts were clearly expressed. You’re analyzing it to much, but yes all 3
 
…and I thought you wanted to talk about the holiness of God, but if you want me to continue this analysis we can.

“an action is not necessarily more virtuous if it is hard to do”
Yet, what does “hard” mean?
  1. Perceived to be against the “human’s” own wants maybe even self-sacrificial?
  2. A feat of great athletic or intellectual effort?
  3. A “hard” choice because it is unclear the act will actually result in a virtuous outcome.
  1. An action is not necessarily more virtuous if it is against the “human’s” own wants maybe even self-sacrificial.
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I find this clearly a false statement. I think God does regard our degree of giving up our own wants as more virtuous.
  1. An action is not necessarily more virtuous if it is a feat of great athletic or intellectual effort.
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This is less compelling than number 1; so, would would not exclude the possibility that virtue is raised in all cases, but the great majority of acts that take a high degree of skill or knowledge most often are more virtuous because of this sort of difficulty.
  1. An action is not necessarily more virtuous if it is unclear the act will actually result in a virtuous outcome.
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God understands our limitations to predict outcomes and looks to the intent of our heart including being sloppy if we don’t do our diligence in trying to be sure our actions result in positive out comes and don’t get into the falseness of trading good for evil when not necessary. Therefore, I agree with this statement that it is other factors that may matter more.

Do you see how each of these is a very different answer, but you throw the word “hard” down and expect everyone to know what you mean. When your dealing with difficult subjects more care must be made for even mediocre communication to take place.

Now, can we get to what it is you think is holy that God is not? Let’s just cover what, not why or how or even where.
 
How could a saints acts be less virtuous after virtue is acquired and is thus a habit?

Again, this is directed towards under standing how God can better good by nature than someone who is constantly striving for goodness
 
By force? are you saying God can direct peoples actions by force to make them do good? What does that accomplish besides making God a bully?
 
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