Is the CC elitist and standing in the way of bringing believers into full communion with Christ?

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Lalting

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The CC has always stated that it welcomes everyone to the table to share is the graces that Jesus Christ has to bestow. However, when the CC says everyone, it really only means those who have been raised in the CC or have completed RCIA.
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 How do you convince someone to join the holy catholic church, when the CC makes them feel like outsiders?

 If you believe that the host really is the body and blood of Christ, while proclaiming belief in the same creeds, sing the same songs, but are still uncertain if todays CC is really the church Christ established; should the sacrifice really be denied?

 Is not everyone growing in their faith and in need of continued grace for that growth?

 Could allowing people access to the sacrament with proper beliefs like first communicants, especially interfaith couples who are struggling with finding a common church home, promote conversion to the CC rather than promote hatred of the CC because of its elitism?
Thank you, I am trying to understand barriers to believing the the CC is the one holy and apostolic church that is both visible and invisible as opposed to worship God as part of the universal, invisible catholic church.

Lalting
 
This is a good question, I hope I can shed some light on it. Asking that only those who have been initiated into the Church partake of the Holy Eucharist is done out of concern for those who might receive it. If someone so chose, they could attend a mass and go up to receive Communion without anyone knowing whether they were Catholic or not. It’s not like they check your membership card first. 😛

The reason for this request is simple. We believe that partaking of the Eucharist is a tremendously holy thing, and doing so without the belief that it is truly the body and blood of Jesus Christ is damaging to the person. This has been the understanding of the Church since the very beginning:

Romans 14:23 - But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

1 Corinthians 11:29 - For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.

And while nobody is really worthy of receiving the Eucharist, we believe that it is important to at least be reconciled of your sins before you do, by going to confession:

1 Corinthians 11:27 - Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.

The request that the Church makes of those who are not yet Catholic is not done out of a sense of elitism or superiority, but out of a desire to prevent people from injuring their souls. No sincere Catholic will prevent someone who wishes to become Catholic from doing so. We want people to partake of the Holy Eucharist, we merely ask that they do it the right way.

I hope that helps. God bless!
 
Lalting said:
The CC has always stated that it welcomes everyone to the table to share is the graces that Jesus Christ has to bestow. However, when the CC says everyone, it really only means those who have been raised in the CC or have completed RCIA.
Code: 
 How do you convince someone to join the holy catholic church, when the CC makes them feel like outsiders?

 If you believe that the host really is the body and blood of Christ, while proclaiming belief in the same creeds, sing the same songs, but are still uncertain if todays CC is really the church Christ established; should the sacrifice really be denied?

 Is not everyone growing in their faith and in need of continued grace for that growth?

 Could allowing people access to the sacrament with proper beliefs like first communicants, especially interfaith couples who are struggling with finding a common church home, promote conversion to the CC rather than promote hatred of the CC because of its elitism?
Thank you, I am trying to understand barriers to believing the the CC is the one holy and apostolic church that is both visible and invisible as opposed to worship God as part of the universal, invisible catholic church.

Lalting
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Everyone IS invited to participate in Mass, to hear the Word, and to worship. However, receiving the Eucharist (who is Jesus Himself, not a symbol) – together – is a sign of our unity of faith. In other words, in order to receive Holy Communion, there must be communion in faith – we’re to believe that this is the Church that Jesus founded, that she (the Church) preserves and passes on His teachings, and that He is the Way, the Truth, the Life. A non-Catholic is not in full communion with the Church. Jesus founded “One” Church with one set of truths – and desires that all be in unity with the Church. A non-Catholic may want to “feel” in union, but in fact isn’t. A Catholic who is in a state of mortal sin is also not in full communion, and must abstain from receiving the sacrament until being absolved during the sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession).

Again, everyone is welcome But participation in the faith is based not based on emotions, but on Truth and Love. If someone wants to fully belong, they can study and accept the teachings and lifestyle of the faith, and prepare for the sacraments.
 
I rushed through my previous post – I had meant to include the Nicene Creed (which we usually recite as our Profession of Faith during Mass). It is a skeletal summary of what we believe. When we proclaim that we believe in the “one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church” we are proclaiming our belief in the teaching authority of the Catholic Church.

To the OP – if you’re interested in learning about Catholicism, I hope you’ll call your nearby Catholic parish to schedule a meeting with the pastor or RCIA person (no commitment to become Catholic is required to begin participating in RCIA).

NICENE CREED

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son].
With the Father and the Son
he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.

Free CD: The Mass Explained:
catholicity.com/cds/mass.html
 
Lalting said:
The CC has always stated that it welcomes everyone to the table to share in the graces that Jesus Christ has to bestow.
Where is it indicated that this means receiving communion without accepting the faith of the Church?

However, when the CC says everyone, it really only means those who have been raised in the CC or have completed RCIA.
**Yes,if someone has been raised in the church or completed RCIA, he has understanding (according to his age and ability) and acceptance of church teaching and the nature of the Eucharist. If conscious of serious sin, he has repented, confessed his sin, and been forgiven in the sacrament of Confession (rite of Reconciliation).

**** How do you convince someone to join the holy catholic church, when the CC makes them feel like outsiders?
They are** outsiders until they become insiders. Christ is calling all people but they must choose to respond.
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 If you believe that the host really is the body and blood of Christ, while proclaiming belief in the same creeds, sing the same songs, but are still uncertain if todays CC is really the church Christ established; should the sacrifice really be denied?
A church that doesn’t come down from the apostles doesn’t have valid sacraments. If you believe that the host is the body and blood of Christ, it logically follows that the CC is the one Christ established and a person should become a member of the church in order to receive the sacraments. If you belong to one of the other apostolic churches, such as Orthodox, you should receive the sacraments there until you are led by the Lord to come into full communion with the Catholic church.
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 Is not everyone growing in their faith and in need of continued grace for that growth?
**Yes to both questions. God continually gives His grace both within and outside the sacraments.

** Could allowing people access to the sacrament with proper beliefs like first communicants, especially interfaith couples who are struggling with finding a common church home, promote conversion to the CC rather than promote hatred of the CC because of its elitism?
When coming into full communion, the candidate states "I believe in all that the Catholic church professes and teaches". One who doesn’t believe, isn’t in full communion, and would by lying and committing sacrilege by receiving communion.

What do you mean ‘with proper beliefs like first communicants’? First communicants go through a long period of preparation and faith formation.

In my parish we have interfaith couples. The non-Catholic is welcome to become part of the parish except for receiving communion, being a reader or Eucharistic minister or teaching religion. He/she is welcome at mass and at all parish activities. An interfaith couple recognize that they aren’t completely united in faith. If their faith is important to them, they adapt in different ways. Some go to their own churches. Some go to mass on Saturday night and to the other church on Sunday. Some just go to mass.

Why should asking that someone become a member of the Church before receiving it’s sacraments be considered elitist??

Thank you, I am trying to understand barriers to believing the the CC is the one holy and apostolic church that is both visible and invisible as opposed to worship God as part of the universal, invisible catholic church.
A city on a mountain top isn’t hidden. The church Christ founded was visible and united in belief and pastored by the apostles and their successors. The Protestant idea of an invisible catholic (universal) church is a fallacy. By Baptism one is made a member of the Catholic church, but those who don’t accept all the teachings are only imperfectly united to it.

Lalting
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I grew up Episcopalian and was confirmed in that faith. I thought I knew practically everything there was to know about the Catholic faith until I went through the RCIA process, when I found out that I didn’t know very much at all.

The Church is not elitist and it would be inaccurate the describe it as such. Everyone who participates fully in the Mass does need to know what they are doing.

RCIA programs vary according to the parish. Some take a year or thereabouts, others take less time, 6 months or so. The spiritual growth is enormous. This is what needs to happen, this period of learning is a gift from the Church to a prospective Catholic.
 
Thank you for your responses.

I concur that protecting the communicants from injuring their soul is very important. The scriptures are very clear about this. (Thank you cyberjaques for posting them).

As for confessing our sins, isn’t that a part of the mass for venial sins for Catholics to confess there sins directly to God prior to partaking in the Eucharistic celebration. While it is recommended to participate in the sacrament of confession with a priest or bishop on a regular basis; is it not required only in the instance of mortal sin?

While the proper education is required to understand what it means to receive communion; prior to communion is not every person evaluating themselves if they are worthy of receiving the sacrament independent of the CC?

Why can a child who has not completed the sacrament of confirmation partake in communion? Is it just because their parents are Catholic? Is it not because they have reached the age of reason and can tell the differences between right and wrong that they are allowed to partake in the sacraments of confession and communion?

If a child never partakes in the sacrament of confirmation; at what point are they no longer considered in full communion and not allowed to receive the Eucharist?

To an outsider, the CC and its members seem to be holding a double standard. If you call yourself Catholic, you are allowed many liberties. If you are an adult that is coming to the Church, you must jump a much higher bar to receive the graces of God.

Thoughts,

Lalting
 
Claire from DE, thank you for your response. You addressed some of my questions to my later post while I was typing.

Lalting
 
Lalting said:
Thank you for your responses.

I concur that protecting the communicants from injuring their soul is very important. The scriptures are very clear about this. (Thank you cyberjaques for posting them).

As for confessing our sins, isn’t that a part of the mass for venial sins for Catholics to confess there sins directly to God prior to partaking in the Eucharistic celebration. While it is recommended to participate in the sacrament of confession with a priest or bishop on a regular basis; is it not required only in the instance of mortal sin?
It is necessary to confess only mortal sins to a priest but highly recommended to confess venial sins as well in order to advance in holiness. We need to repent of all sin before receiving the Eucharist.

While the proper education is required to understand what it means to receive communion; prior to communion is not every person evaluating themselves if they are worthy of receiving the sacrament **independent of the CC?
**I’m not sure what you mean by what I bolded above. None of us are worthy to receive the sacrament. but may do so if we are in the state of grace, and have fasted for an hour.

Why can a child who has not completed the sacrament of confirmation partake in communion? Is it just because their parents are Catholic? Is it not because they have reached the age of reason and can tell the differences between right and wrong that they are allowed to partake in the sacraments of confession and communion?
A child, who is a baptized Catholic and is taught the faith and goes through a period of preparation and attends mass on Sundays, is admitted to the sacraments with the approval of the pastor. Like Baptism and Confirmation, I believe the date of the first Communion is recorded in the parish records.

If a child never partakes in the sacrament of confirmation; at what point are they no longer considered in full communion and not allowed to receive the Eucharist?
Being in full communion with the church isn’t dependent on confirmation. For a variety of reasons (moving to another parish, changing schools, etc.) a child may not have been confirmed. (In the Eastern rites, of course, infants are confirmed when they are baptized.) As an adult, a Catholic who hasn’t be confirmed is encouraged to go through a period of formation and receive this sacrament. It is recommended, and in some places required, that a Catholic be confirmed before being married in the church.

To an outsider, the CC and its members seem to be holding a double standard. If you call yourself Catholic, you are allowed many liberties. If you are an adult that is coming to the Church, you must jump a much higher bar to receive the graces of God.
I think you will see by my answers to your previous questions that Catholics are expected to go through a period of formation and be approved by the pastor (as representative of the bishop) to be admitted to the sacraments. For Baptism, the parents usually have to go attend classes in advance, since the pastor is not to baptize children unless there is a founded hope they will be raised Catholic.

Thoughts,
Everyone in the church is expected to submit to legitimate authority. Even priests, bishops, and the pope go to confession. Obedience to the Church is obedience to Christ.

Lalting
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Claire from DE,

Thank you again for your insightful response.

As for what I mean by “independent of the CC”; is more that the final decision that a person determines that they are in a state of proper grace lies between the person and Jesus. The CC establishes the foundation, but ultimately the person makes the decision to the best of their knowledge and conscious.

It is easy to talk about the ideals of submitting to the laws of the Catholic Church and how wonderful that is. However, it is difficult to explain the reality of the Catholic parishioners; especially the obviously cafeteria Catholic parishioners that are not challenged about their participation in the Eucharistic celebration.

It is easier to mark and exclude someone who has stronger faith, but is misguided in their teachings than it is to stand up to a fellow parishioner that is deliberately ignoring the law or fudging it to match their conscious for an interpretation of grace. This is a hard thing to explain to someone on the outside looking in.

Lalting
 
Lalting said:
I concur that protecting the communicants from injuring their soul is very important. The scriptures are very clear about this. (Thank you cyberjaques for posting them).
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Glad I could help 😃
Lalting said:
To an outsider, the CC and its members seem to be holding a double standard. If you call yourself Catholic, you are allowed many liberties. If you are an adult that is coming to the Church, you must jump a much higher bar to receive the graces of God.
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What liberties do “outsiders” think Catholics get? And I assume you mean cradle Catholics as opposed to converts. Adult cradle Catholics have already gone through a great deal of education and such during childhood. They are then expected to maintain their faith as adults. Adults joining the Church also go through a great deal of education, and in a way you could say that they have it easier, since it takes much less time and they clearly want to be there, as opposed to a child who spends years learning and would most likely rather be doing something else.
 
Lalting said:
It is easier to mark and exclude someone who has stronger faith, but is misguided in their teachings than it is to stand up to a fellow parishioner that is deliberately ignoring the law or fudging it to match their conscious for an interpretation of grace. This is a hard thing to explain to someone on the outside looking in.
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The person looking in has to put some effort into learning enough to understand why Catholics do what they do. Otherwise they have nobody to blame for their ignorance but themselves. Blatant and unrepentant mortal sin is the only thing likely to cause you to be denied Communion by a priest. The reason for this is that when it comes to “fudging the law”, much of that is left up to the individual. Jesus said that He would write His law on our hearts. If the law is written on your heart, meaning you know better, and yet you still receive Communion unworthily, it goes back to my original post, the person eats and drinks judgment upon themselves. And, if another parishioner is aware of this person’s fudging and does not confront them about it, they are sinning as well. But if you’re the only one that knows you are receiving the Eucharist unworthily, nobody is going to grill you about it before you’re allowed to partake. Much responsibility falls on those who understand but do not obey.
 
I think each church/religious organisation has the right to set what rules it regards as essential for people to join and remain members in good standing; after all, secular clubs and organisations have much the same. Joining a community and living in a community always means you have to accept certain rules when you sign up; I don’t think there is anything wrong with the CC setting its own rules. If you don’t like it, you can simply refuse to join, or just leave and move on.
 
Lalting said:
Claire from DE,

Thank you again for your insightful response.
I’m glad you found them helpful. I just love the Church but it sure has a lot of sinners in it. We’re lucky they don’t kick us sinners out.🙂

As for what I mean by “independent of the CC”; is more that the final decision that a person determines that they are in a state of proper grace lies between the person and Jesus. The CC establishes the foundation, but ultimately the person makes the decision to the best of their knowledge and conscious.
Yes, we are expected to have well formed consciences and then to follow our consciences. God knows our hearts. The priest doesn’t deny those who comes up to receive communion (unless they are known to be an unrepentant public sinner or he knows they aren’t Catholic). Anyone who presents himself is assumed to be Catholic and in the state of grace.

It is easy to talk about the ideals of submitting to the laws of the Catholic Church and how wonderful that is. However, it is difficult to explain the reality of the Catholic parishioners; especially the obviously cafeteria Catholic parishioners that are not challenged about their participation in the Eucharistic celebration.
I agree. I know someone in an irregular marriage who receives communion. Before the wedding she knew of the man’s former marriage, which almost certainly wasn’t valid, and she decided it would be too hard emotionally for him to go through the annulment process. So they got married at home by a minister. She isn’t giving scandal since most people don’t know the details. I leave it to God to decide if she is sinning by doing this. I assume the best (that she is unable to understand the church teaching) and pray for her. She was a convert almost 60 years ago and was not well catechized before coming into the church. She accepts Jesus but not the authority of the church. In this way she is like some Catholics who grew up in the 70’s and 80’s when the religious education classes emphasized God loves us all and were very loose on other truths of the faith.
I think the occasional homily about receiving communion worthily is needed. I can’t remember hearing one.

It is easier to mark and exclude someone who has stronger faith, but is misguided in their teachings than it is to stand up to a fellow parishioner that is deliberately ignoring the law or fudging it to match their conscious for an interpretation of grace. This is a hard thing to explain to someone on the outside looking in.
How true.
The priest has the opportunity to form the person’s conscience in Confession. God will judge the person who is fudging his conscience and we can only hope He will be merciful. Non Catholics should make a spiritual communion at mass. IMHO this will be more pleasing to God than a Catholic who receives unworthily.
I’m involved in RCIA and have seen candidates in tears at mass waiting for the results of their annulment investigations. Their belief and desire for the Eucharist was so great. Yet they have said that that time of waiting was also a time of grace for them.

Lalting
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Lalting said:
The CC has always stated that it welcomes everyone to the table to share is the graces that Jesus Christ has to bestow. However, when the CC says everyone, it really only means those who have been raised in the CC or have completed RCIA.
Code: 
 How do you convince someone to join the holy catholic church, when the CC makes them feel like outsiders?
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This makes no sense. If you are trying to convince them to join, then obviously they are outsiders. Otherwise they wouldn’t need to join.

Edwin
 
I have heard the the people of faith who have gone before us referred to as the invisable church.
 
Contarini said:
This makes no sense. If you are trying to convince them to join, then obviously they are outsiders. Otherwise they wouldn’t need to join.

Edwin
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Edwin,
Code: 
 That is interesting that with your affiliation being Episcopalian, you would argue that it makes no sense not to actually welcome everyone.  While I do not know about the Episcopalian tradition, it has been my experience that protestant churches put a card in the pews describing what their belief is in communion.  If you believe that; you are welcome to participate, irregardless of your affiliation.

 A big difference between the Catholic Church and a protestant church is that Catholics say you must believe in the visible church in addition to the invisible church when "holy catholic Church" is stated.  (Note: In this case I am assuming the individual believes in transubstantiation, I know it is a stretch; but does not believe in the magisterium or the papacy.)
Lalting
 
VWcrazy said:
invisible church? For invisibile people?

The Church is not invisible - its very visible.
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This is from the Catholic Catechism:

"Para. 779: The Church is both visible and spiritual, a hierarchical society and the Mystical Body of Christ. She is one, yet formed of two components, human and divine. That is her mystery, which only faith can accept.

Para. 771 “. . . The Church is essentially both human and divine, visible but endowed with invisible realities, zealous in action and dedicated to contemplation, present in the world, but as a pilgrim, so constituted that in her the human is directed toward and subordinated to the divine, the visible to the invisible, action to contemplation, and this present world to that city yet to come, the object of our quest” (SC 2; cf. Heb 13:14).

There are protestant teachings to help resolve the statement “holy catholic/universal church” in the creeds. The teaching is that the church is formed and held together invisibly by the Holy Spirit. While there are visible signs of the invisible church in the form of congregations; the church itself is not comprised of the visible aspect, but by the common spirit that is binding all the members together.

Hope this helps explain invisible and visible with relation to the church.

Lalting
 
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