Is The Chapel Veil Coming Back?

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byers said:
I, too, wore chapel veils and lace mantillas, but it was not the norm, although it was not infrequent. Just as many wore scarves and hats.
I’m sorry but “veiling” is a new terminology, NEVER before used by Catholic women, and it offends my catholic sensibilities. Even on her wedding day women would not say they were “veiling”…they would say they are wearing a veil. “Veiling” has a greater connotation than just wearing a headcovering. Muslims use it often and it meaning is, I assure you, not just wearing a headcovering.
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My apologies if the term offends you. I can understand how you take it to have a connotation of Islamic idealogy. Interesting how words can be construed in many different ways.

Actually “veiling” was used as a term for becoming a nun. I remember reading it in books and it’s probably where I got the term. (I used to use the word “nunnery” as a kid because I read it in old Victorian novels and Shakespearean plays, until people started laughing at me and told me not to use that term anymore.) So, most definitely does it have different meanings. Right now, it may perhaps have an additional connotation of covering everything such as in Muslim faith, but it was not always referred to as that. But it’s all semantics. But again, I apologize for it offending your sensibilities, though. God bless.
 
I am a younger woman and I attend mass at the Cathedral Basilica in St. Louis, MO. I am a convert but I do have a veil. I wear it to the TLM at a different church and to the earlier masses at the Cathedral. I do know a handful of women at the Cathedral and about 90% of the ladies at TLM do wear them. I think it is beautiful and I wear my veil simply because TO ME it represents modestly and humility before the Lord.

I will admit though that since I have finally convinced my boyfriend to start coming back to church I haven’t been wearing it when we go to church together because he doesn’t like the Cathedral and we tend to go to a church that is more jeans and t-shirts and I don’t feel comfortable wearing it there.

I would love to see it become more popular. If anyone would like to read more about it, this is the site where I first read about it.
fisheaters.com/theveil.html
 
bebaker22 said:
I am a younger woman and I attend mass at the Cathedral Basilica in St. Louis, MO. I am a convert but I do have a veil. I wear it to the TLM at a different church and to the earlier masses at the Cathedral. I do know a handful of women at the Cathedral and about 90% of the ladies at TLM do wear them. I think it is beautiful and I wear my veil simply because TO ME it represents modestly and humility before the Lord.

I will admit though that since I have finally convinced my boyfriend to start coming back to church I haven’t been wearing it when we go to church together because he doesn’t like the Cathedral and we tend to go to a church that is more jeans and t-shirts and I don’t feel comfortable wearing it there.

I would love to see it become more popular. If anyone would like to read more about it, this is the site where I first read about it.
fisheaters.com/theveil.html
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Thanks for the link. I will pass this on to my girlfirends. We were trying to figure out how to make ones. I like this part. It’s what i was trying to say but couldn’t find the words to say it correctly…

"According to St. Paul, we women veil ourselves as a sign that His glory, not ours, should be the focus at worship, and as a sign of our submission to authority. It is an outward sign of our recognizing headship, both of God and our husbands (or fathers, as the case may be), and a sign of our respecting the presence of the Holy Angels at the Divine Liturgy. In veiling, we reflect the divine invisible order and make it visible. This St. Paul presents clearly as an ordinance, one that is the practice of all the churches.
 
beckers said:
Thanks for the link. I will pass this on to my girlfirends. We were trying to figure out how to make ones. I like this part. It’s what i was trying to say but couldn’t find the words to say it correctly…

"According to St. Paul, we women veil ourselves as a sign that His glory, not ours, should be the focus at worship, and as a sign of our submission to authority. It is an outward sign of our recognizing headship, both of God and our husbands (or fathers, as the case may be), and a sign of our respecting the presence of the Holy Angels at the Divine Liturgy. In veiling, we reflect the divine invisible order and make it visible. This St. Paul presents clearly as an ordinance, one that is the practice of all the churches.
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It is an outward sign of our recognizing headship, both of God and our husbands (or fathers, as the case may be)

This is exactly the kind of reasoning that disturbs me about “veiling” women. The idea that all women must give an outward sign that they are submitting to some man - either husband or father. I have no problem with anyone adopting any kind of modest dress as a form of reverence. But so much of what I see concerning veiling seems predicated on the idea that women should be subjected to men and/or that they are somehow unclean, that their visible presence is unsettling, or that they are otherwise not worthy of being uncovered in God’s presence.
 
TMC said:
It is an outward sign of our recognizing headship, both of God and our husbands (or fathers, as the case may be)

This is exactly the kind of reasoning that disturbs me about “veiling” women. The idea that all women must give an outward sign that they are submitting to some man - either husband or father. I have no problem with anyone adopting any kind of modest dress as a form of reverence. But so much of what I see concerning veiling seems predicated on the idea that women should be subjected to men and/or that they are somehow unclean, that their visible presence is unsettling, or that they are otherwise not worthy of being uncovered in God’s presence.
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Epistle Of Saint Paul To Titus
Chapter 2

1 But speak thou the things that become sound doctrine: 2 That the aged men be sober, chaste, prudent, sound in faith, in love, in patience. 3 The aged women, in like manner, in holy attire, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teaching well: 4 That they may teach the young women to be wise, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 To be discreet, chaste, sober, having a care of the house, gentle, obedient to their husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
 
TMC said:
It is an outward sign of our recognizing headship, both of God and our husbands (or fathers, as the case may be)

This is exactly the kind of reasoning that disturbs me about “veiling” women. The idea that all women must give an outward sign that they are submitting to some man - either husband or father. I have no problem with anyone adopting any kind of modest dress as a form of reverence. But so much of what I see concerning veiling seems predicated on the idea that women should be subjected to men and/or that they are somehow unclean, that their visible presence is unsettling, or that they are otherwise not worthy of being uncovered in God’s presence.
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My father has passed and while I do have a boyfriend we are not married but I can say that yes, when I get married I will submit to my husband in certain issues. Hopefully my future husband will be man enough to be the head and spiritual leader of the household. What can I say…I guess I am a little old fashioned.
 
bebaker22 said:
My father has passed and while I do have a boyfriend we are not married but I can say that yes, when I get married I will submit to my husband in certain issues. Hopefully my future husband will be man enough to be the head and spiritual leader of the household. What can I say…I guess I am a little old fashioned.
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It is too bad so much of this is considered old fashioned.
A man is called to be sober, chaste, prudent, sound in faith, in love, in patience. Every woman should look for these things in a potential husband. 🙂 The relationship of a husband to his wife is the relationship of Christ to His Church.
 
TMC said:
It is an outward sign of our recognizing headship, both of God and our husbands (or fathers, as the case may be)

This is exactly the kind of reasoning that disturbs me about “veiling” women. The idea that all women must give an outward sign that they are submitting to some man - either husband or father. I have no problem with anyone adopting any kind of modest dress as a form of reverence. But so much of what I see concerning veiling seems predicated on the idea that women should be subjected to men and/or that they are somehow unclean, that their visible presence is unsettling, or that they are otherwise not worthy of being uncovered in God’s presence.
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I really don’t want to wear a veil for exactly this reason. As a Catholic wife, I am my husband’s equal partner in this life. We both submit ourselves to God at Mass. Why should I be the only one to cover my head?
 
Mrs_Mac said:
I really don’t want to wear a veil for exactly this reason. As a Catholic wife, I am my husband’s equal partner in this life. We both submit ourselves to God at Mass. Why should I be the only one to cover my head?
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The idea that you should submit to your husband is not just an ancient practice. It is a part of who we are as Christians.
This does not turn you into a doormat or a slave. You are a princess in the kingdom of heaven. As such it is his responsability to serve you. Does the princess of any kingdom try to do for herself, or rather does she in humility accept her station and perform the duties thereof?
If then, you follow Jesus way of being the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, serve him. Not out of anything other than acceptance of your rightful place as handmade of God. Demonstrating your love for God in dealings with all people. Jesus said whatever you have done unto the least of these you have done unto me. Does this apply only to those who are sick, hungry, naked or in prison? I don’t think so, and neither did the saints. Would it not be submitting to the will of Christ who is every womans true spouse to serve not only the poor with great love for him but also the ones equal to us in station and those whose place God has seen fit to place as our umbrella of protection no matter who they be.
 
Mrs_Mac said:
I really don’t want to wear a veil for exactly this reason. As a Catholic wife, I am my husband’s equal partner in this life. We both submit ourselves to God at Mass. Why should I be the only one to cover my head?
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Husband and wife are equal in mutual human dignity. They don’t have the same role.
 
Cathryn said:
Husband and wife are equal in mutual human dignity. They don’t have the same role.
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Then why is only one required to make a public sign of submission? I agree they do not have the same role, but if the role of one is to submit and the role of the other is to rule, then they are not equal. I have no problem with holy attire, both men and women should dress modestly and tastefully for Mass. What modest and tasteful means may vary from place to place. But covering your head because you must show public submission has nothing to do with modesty. Why is showing a woman’s face immodest or unholy?
 
TMC said:
It is an outward sign of our recognizing headship, both of God and our husbands (or fathers, as the case may be)

This is exactly the kind of reasoning that disturbs me about “veiling” women. The idea that all women must give an outward sign that they are submitting to some man - either husband or father. I have no problem with anyone adopting any kind of modest dress as a form of reverence. But so much of what I see concerning veiling seems predicated on the idea that women should be subjected to men and/or that they are somehow unclean, that their visible presence is unsettling, or that they are otherwise not worthy of being uncovered in God’s presence.
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So now we get to the meat of the argument. Its not so much the covering that bothers you as it does that there is a difference between women and men. Now that we know the meat of the argument should we moved to another thread because i think we could have a very good discussion about men vs women’s roles and how God has defined them verus society.

A covering is not a sign of punishment. It’s a sign of respect for the King when we are in his presence.
 
beckers said:
So now we get to the meat of the argument. Its not so much the covering that bothers you as it does that there is a difference between women and men. Now that we know the meat of the argument should we moved to another thread because i think we could have a very good discussion about men vs women’s roles and how God has defined them verus society.

A covering is not a sign of punishment. It’s a sign of respect for the King when we are in his presence.
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NO. What bothers me is not that there is a difference between men and women, or even that men and women should dress differently. I would not trade clothes with my wife for Mass, it would not be appropriate. I have no issues with gender roles. It bothers me that the veil is intended to be a sign that women are to subject themselves to men, or that a woman’s face is offensive to God or His angels. I did not say it was a sign of punishment, but you said it was meant to show that women are subject to their menfolk. I don’t find that a valuable or appropriate message. These seem directly on point to me, but I don’t want to hijack this thread so I won’t say anything more on the topic.
 
TMC said:
Then why is only one required to make a public sign of submission? I agree they do not have the same role, but if the role of one is to submit and the role of the other is to rule, then they are not equal. I have no problem with holy attire, both men and women should dress modestly and tastefully for Mass. What modest and tasteful means may vary from place to place. But covering your head because you must show public submission has nothing to do with modesty. Why is showing a woman’s face immodest or unholy?
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A woman’s face is not immodest or unholy. :confused: :confused: Her head is not unholy either.

Both man and woman are submissive and obedient to God. A man represents Jesus Christ and is the head of his wife who represents the Church according to Holy Scripture. Jesus Christ is the head and His Church is His Body. Jesus Christ is the lover and His Church is the beloved. Jesus Christ and His Church are One, and a husband and wife are One. The role of men and woman in God’s plan is different.

When St. Paul explains why a woman is to cover her head he also explains in detail this relationship of men and woman and explains that this is the relationship of Jesus Christ to His Church. This is why the Blessed Mother is spoken of as representing the Church.
As with much of Catholic belief many things have multiple meaning. When a woman covers her head she is ultimitely giving to God her submission to Him. Her husband only represents Jesus Christ in their marriage. He is not Jesus Christ himself. He is to sacrifice and love her as Christ loves His Church. To understand this more fully you could read John Paul II teachings on Theology of the Body.
 
TMC said:
NO. What bothers me is not that there is a difference between men and women, or even that men and women should dress differently. I would not trade clothes with my wife for Mass, it would not be appropriate. I have no issues with gender roles. It bothers me that the veil is intended to be a sign that women are to subject themselves to men, or that a woman’s face is offensive to God or His angels. I did not say it was a sign of punishment, but you said it was meant to show that women are subject to their menfolk. I don’t find that a valuable or appropriate message. These seem directly on point to me, but I don’t want to hijack this thread so I won’t say anything more on the topic.
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No its not directed toward you. It’s what is at the root of problems and not just with coverings. We have all been brain washed by society to believe that men and women are the same. We aren’t. We are equal beings in God’s eyes but we have different defined roles with in his kingdom. I can never be a priest and a man can never be a mother. We should embrace are differences instead of trying to blur the lines between man and women. Just because we can do something does mean we should have to do it. It also seems that showing submittance is some how showing weakness or non-vaule. This is the farthest thing from the truth.

Priest, nuns, husband, wives show submitance to each other and God through their vows. We all show submittance to God when we go to confession or mass or any other acts that we do to show reverance to God and the fact that he is our superior. We do it daily and it doesn’t show weakness but strength. We are acknowledging our sinfulness and trying to move closer to God.

Why is a women covering her hair (not her face) considered an evil thing? We veil or cover things all the time in front of God. Nuns wear habits, priest wear cloaks, choir members sometimes wear robes, a priest covers hismelf in fine garments to expose the Eucharist during adoration or processions, we clothe ourselves in white garaments at our baptism…the list could go on and on. So why does this one covering bring such issue and angry?
 
Not to derail this thread but here are some good reads on man and women roles and about the christian marriage. They might help explain better the idea of submitting and the different roles men and women are called to. Like i said we should try not to blend the roles of men and women. I know I am honored to be called a women.

1880
ARCANUM
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII
ON CHRISTIAN MARRIAGE
vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_10021880_arcanum_en.html

1930
CASTI CONNUBII
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI
ON CHRISTIAN MARRIAGE
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/p...s/hf_p-xi_enc_31121930_casti-connubii_en.html

1968
HUMANAE VITAE
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PAUL VI
ONTHE REGULATION OF BIRTH
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/p...ts/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

and more about the dignity of women which is touched on in Humanae Vitae

***LETTER OF HIS HOLINESS JOHN PAUL II ***
TO MRS. GERTRUDE MONGELLA
***SECRETARY GENERAL OF THE FOURTH WORLD CONFERENCE ***
ON WOMEN OF THE UNITED NATIONS
vatican.va/holy_father/jo…echino_en.html

***MESSAGE ***
***OF HIS HOLINESS ***
***POPE JOHN PAUL II ***
FOR THE XXVIII WORLD DAY OF PEACE
WOMEN:TEACHERS OF PEACE
vatican.va/holy_father/jo…-peace_en.html
 
surgei said:
The idea that you should submit to your husband is not just an ancient practice. It is a part of who we are as Christians.
This does not turn you into a doormat or a slave. You are a princess in the kingdom of heaven. As such it is his responsability to serve you. Does the princess of any kingdom try to do for herself, or rather does she in humility accept her station and perform the duties thereof?
If then, you follow Jesus way of being the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, serve him. Not out of anything other than acceptance of your rightful place as handmade of God. Demonstrating your love for God in dealings with all people. Jesus said whatever you have done unto the least of these you have done unto me. Does this apply only to those who are sick, hungry, naked or in prison? I don’t think so, and neither did the saints. Would it not be submitting to the will of Christ who is every womans true spouse to serve not only the poor with great love for him but also the ones equal to us in station and those whose place God has seen fit to place as our umbrella of protection no matter who they be.
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This o nly works if the husband actually does serve his wife as Christ serves h i s Church. For some women it just doesn’t work out this way.
 
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