Is the Charismatic Renewal Catholic

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bkovacs said:
Sounds protestant to me. Like the pentalcostals. I wouldn’t consider it Catholic. You don’t see movements like this with the Orthodox Churches either.
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It exists within the Armenian Orthodox Church.
 
palmas85 said:
Leaving out some of the essential elements of an historical event can actually alter the opinion others have of the event. In something this important, I think it is necessary that people not in the movement need to know ALL of the details, not just the ones which support the fiction now being spread that the movement suddenly appeared within the Church with no outside prompting or influence and that is just plain wrong, because that is not the way it happened.

Not by a long shot.
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Certainly, the truth is always good. In terms of the Duquesne group, they were influenced by the book “The Cross and the Switchblade”, written by David Wilkerson, who was a protestant pastor. Lest we forget, many protestants believe in the Most Holy Trinity and the Sacred Scriptures, and have an intense, personal love for Jesus and might very well be Catholic if it weren’t for what they falsely believe the Church teaches. Being inspired by the writings of a protestant is in no way similar to consulting some pagan religious text.

Second, whatever the failings of those young students may have been, they have brought their experiences within the context of the Catholic Church. I happen to know some of them (as an acquaintance), and they do not teach some sort of super-spirituality that transcends the Church and her Sacraments. Certainly there are some who focus exclusivley on the sentimental side of things, but that is just as much an error as denying the Spirit’s power.

At one quite charismatic Catholic parish that I know of, the pastor says to “live for Jesus, by the power of his Spirit, in the heart of his Church.”
 
Freshman88 said:
That’s quite interesting, do you have a reference?
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I don’t know of a direct reference (like a website or book or something) – my information comes from being friends with an charismatic Armenian Orthodox family. I don’t know how large it is, but it certainly exists.
 
Paul_Folbrecht said:
M is a forbidden subject here and it’s definitely a condemned apparition. The local bishop is the Church and both local bishops, since the very beginning, have found ‘nothing supernatural occurring’ and have released very strong statements condemning the ridiculous dishonesty and disobedience by the ‘seers’ and their handlers. Then there’s the false prophecies, heterodox messages, the fact that a priest central to the whole thing and defended by the ‘gospa’ has been censured by the Vatican as a fraud, etc., etc., etc.

Like I said, though, forbidden topic.
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Do you have any links on the subject? Someone gave me a book to read and it covered Mujadore and it was the first I had heard of it. Really? We are not allowed to discuss that here? Sorry for going off topic.
 
Paul_Folbrecht said:
What’s Protestant is this modern-day notion that the Sacraments are, pretty much, ‘not enough’, or not the centrality of the faith life, that the primary source of Truth is one’s personal (emotional) experiences, that being a part of the visible Church that Christ founded is not too important, etc.
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Any faithful charismatic Catholic should completely reject that notion. That is a more “protestant” interpretation of charismaticism.
 
bkovacs said:
Sounds protestant to me. Like the pentalcostals. I wouldn’t consider it Catholic. You don’t see movements like this with the Orthodox Churches either.
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In ‘Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future,’ Father Seraphim Rose documents a number of places where the charismatic movement is breaking into Orthodox Churches. It does happen, potentially could happen more.

I don’t in general trust everything Father Seraphim Rose says. He seemed to suffer from a mentality that saw evil satanic conspiracies at work everywhere in the world other than his own small branch of Orthodoxy. Even still, much of his basic analysis of the charismatic movement (it’s protestant origins, its reliance on emotion, its ecumenical character, etc.) seems valid.

Overall, though, I think you’re right. The Catholic Church is definitely much more taken by modern errors, at least for the present time, than the Orthodox.
 
Paul_Folbrecht said:
It would be an irrational, extremist position to imply that no Protestant person has anything to offer of value (spiritually or otherwise). I don’t think that’s what’s being said here.

I also don’t know any informed and properly catechized Catholics who would read Acts and think of it as ‘Protestant’ because there was speaking in tongues. That strikes me as rather silly.

What’s Protestant is this modern-day notion that the Sacraments are, pretty much, ‘not enough’, or not the centrality of the faith life, that the primary source of Truth is one’s personal (emotional) experiences, that being a part of the visible Church that Christ founded is not too important, etc.

Those things are Protestant in the bad sense.
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That concentration on experience is one of the central errors dealt with in Pascendi. I think St Pius X was right, that it will ultimately lead to agnosticism and then to atheism.

You are right. The point is not to say no protestant has anything good to say. There are a handful of protestant writers (e.g. C.S. Lewis, T.S. Eliot, John Milton) who are very important to me. The point is to affirm that the sources of renewal must be Catholic in origin.
 
I am not into the Charismatic aspect of the Church.

However, it amazes me when people say Charisms are not Catholic. I am speaking in general terms and not pointing fingers at anyone.

All you have to do is look in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It satates that charisms are a gift from the Holy Spirit and are valid. But, you must discern and decide whether Charisms you are witnessing are valid or not.

Look it up.
 
Prometheum_x said:
I don’t know of a direct reference (like a website or book or something) – my information comes from being friends with an charismatic Armenian Orthodox family. I don’t know how large it is, but it certainly exists.
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I used to attend a non-denominational women’s Bible Study which was very charismatic and there were Orthodox women there, fully participating.
 
Prometheum_x said:
Certainly, the truth is always good. In terms of the Duquesne group, they were influenced by the book “The Cross and the Switchblade”, written by David Wilkerson, who was a protestant pastor. Lest we forget, many protestants believe in the Most Holy Trinity and the Sacred Scriptures, and have an intense, personal love for Jesus and might very well be Catholic if it weren’t for what they falsely believe the Church teaches. Being inspired by the writings of a protestant is in no way similar to consulting some pagan religious text.

Second, whatever the failings of those young students may have been, they have brought their experiences within the context of the Catholic Church. I happen to know some of them (as an acquaintance), and they do not teach some sort of super-spirituality that transcends the Church and her Sacraments. Certainly there are some who focus exclusivley on the sentimental side of things, but that is just as much an error as denying the Spirit’s power.

At one quite charismatic Catholic parish that I know of, the pastor says to “live for Jesus, by the power of his Spirit, in the heart of his Church.”
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Not saying that he charismatic movement is heretical or anything else, but just about every group that was later determined to be heretical all thought they were orthodox Christians.

As far as the power of the Holy Spirit I in no way believe that it takes the charismatic movement to release it, as do many of them.
 
Yes, the very first christians were definitely empowered by the Holy Spirit and Catholicism started with the first Christians. Yes, it is nice to have the Pope acknowledge the Charismatic movement. There is some rich history that needs to be explored and EXPOSED to all of the Catholic faithful:banghead:
for those interested email me at courage2chng@gmail.com.
I would love to have a enlightened :getholy: conversation with those of you that are thinking that the Charismatic Movement is only for Protestants.
Blessings to all, CC
 
ChristianCath said:
Yes, the very first christians were definitely empowered by the Holy Spirit and Catholicism started with the first Christians. Yes, it is nice to have the Pope acknowledge the Charismatic movement. There is some rich history that needs to be explored and EXPOSED to all of the Catholic faithful:banghead:
for those interested email me at courage2chng@gmail.com.
I would love to have a enlightened :getholy: conversation with those of you that are thinking that the Charismatic Movement is only for Protestants.
Blessings to all, CC
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Why?

Just an aside, I definitely accept the validity of the charisms.👍

Equally, I totally reject the notion that the Charismatic Renewal has anything at all to do with them.👍 They did not miraculously come about because of this movement which is from what I have seen comprised primarily of holier than thou types who feel that they are somehow more special and more in touch with the Holy Spirit than the rest of us who have not yet experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit bestows the charisms upon whom He chooses when He chooses and how He chooses and not upon all who ask for them and claim to be able to manipulate them to their own ends.

Sorry.
 
Is it beyond the Holy Spirit to decide at some point in time to breathe His charisms upon His people and bring about a renewal in their minds and hearts? Hasn’t the Church been renewed by Saints throughout history that the people of those times considered to be off the wall? Hasn’t there been abuses in every movement within the Church by good meaning people? Does that negate the entire movement?

The fruits that I have seen from the CCR are people living out their faith on a daily basis (no longer Sunday only Catholics), people frequenting the sacraments and spending time in Eucharistic Adoration, going to daily Mass, reading Scripture, praying the rosary and being devoted to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary… I just don’t see Satan’s hand in drawing people into a movement that results in such fruit as these. The Charismatic parish in my diocese currently has approximately 15 seminarians studying for the priesthood. No other parish comes close to having that many young men willing to discern priestly vocations!
 
jwatza said:
Is it beyond the Holy Spirit to decide at some point in time to breathe His charisms upon His people and bring about a renewal in their minds and hearts? Hasn’t the Church been renewed by Saints throughout history that the people of those times considered to be off the wall? Hasn’t there been abuses in every movement within the Church by good meaning people? Does that negate the entire movement?

The fruits that I have seen from the CCR are people living out their faith on a daily basis (no longer Sunday only Catholics), people frequenting the sacraments and spending time in Eucharistic Adoration, going to daily Mass, reading Scripture, praying the rosary and being devoted to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary… I just don’t see Satan’s hand in drawing people into a movement that results in such fruit as these. The Charismatic parish in my diocese currently has approximately 15 seminarians studying for the priesthood. No other parish comes close to having that many young men willing to discern priestly vocations!
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It is not the CCR that is doing these things. It is the individuals themselves. To say that these things are happening solely because of the movement is to denigrate those people.

The problem as I see it with such movements, CCR, Lifeteen etc, is that many of those involved in them tend to attach more importance and allegiance to the group than to the Church itself, often becoming fanatical in their devotion to and protection of the various groups. They can stand no criticism of their particular movement and will ascribe all matter of greast works to the movement rather than to those in it.

Approximately 15,:confused: does that mean 15 or 20 or 5? Approximately is a very vague generalization.

While I don’t doubt that good can come from the movement, overall, I would say that it’s effects are marginal at best.

Just my opinion, based on years of dealing with them.
 
Having read only the first page, aI will throw in my 2 cents.
  1. The Catholic Charismatic Renewal is indeed Catholic.
  2. I have been Charismatic since the early 1980’s.
  3. Popes Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI all endorse the movement.
  4. The main focus of the Movement is the Mass, Eucharistic Adoration and a growth in your prayer life. .
  5. The gifts of the Spirit are indeed real and are gifts we all receive at baptism. They are called the gifts of the Spirit.
  6. Yes, there have been screwballs in the movement that give it a bad name. This comes from the individuals, not the movement.
  7. There are untold bishops, priests, deacons, nuns, brothers and lay people in the movement.
  8. Most diocese/archdiocese have contacts at their chancery for this.
  9. If you want to find out about the Charismatic Renewal, inquire from those involved in it. Not from those who are critical about something they don’t really know. I made this mistake. Once I followed through, my faith and prayer life has been truly enriched by it. To coin a phrase, “Try it, you will like it.”
    Prayers & blessings
    Deacon Ed B
 
palmas85,
I said approximately 15 because I couldn’t remember the exact number and didn’t want to give false information, but it was somewhere in the 14 to 17 range. I believe the highest number in the other parishes was 4. Big difference!

Also, when you say that it is the individuals doing these things–yes, but I believe that they are doing these things because of the movement of the Holy Spirit in their lives which they are open to because of their exposure to the CCR.
 
is there some reason this entire discussion is on the wrong forum? is their some reason the participants refuse to look at what the Church has actually said about the CCR, rather than repeating the opinions of persons opposed to the movement ad infinitum? If this question is not going to be answered with cites from actual Church documents, the discussion is IMO pointless.
 
puzzleannie said:
is there some reason this entire discussion is on the wrong forum? is their some reason the participants refuse to look at what the Church has actually said about the CCR, rather than repeating the opinions of persons opposed to the movement ad infinitum? If this question is not going to be answered with cites from actual Church documents, the discussion is IMO pointless.
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Exactly!! 👍 Totally the wrong forum, couldn’t agree more. Also, I asked for cites back on the first page and am still waiting.
 
jwatza said:
palmas85,
I said approximately 15 because I couldn’t remember the exact number and didn’t want to give false information, but it was somewhere in the 14 to 17 range. I believe the highest number in the other parishes was 4. Big difference!

Also, when you say that it is the individuals doing these things–yes, but I believe that they are doing these things because of the movement of the Holy Spirit in their lives which they are open to because of their exposure to the CCR.
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I believe that it is the result of their openess to the Holy Spirit period. The movement had little or nothing to do with it as far as I can see. If I remember correctly the Holy Spirit has moved people pretty consistenly over the centuries without the CCR. I don’t think the Holy Spirit needs it, the CCR to help get His message across. I really don’t. Are you somehow saying that without the movement these people could not experience the power of the Holy Spirit? That sure sounds like what you are saying and if it is you have inadvertantly proved my point. For if it is what you are saying then you have elevated the movement to something necessary and required for meaningful worship instead of just being what it is, a group of people.

Hey if you need the movement to feel closer to the Holy Spirit, go for it. I don’t however. For me the movement is just that, a totally self serving movement just like Lifeteen… One of many that has sprung up within the Church over the centuries. Hopefully, it will go the same way most of them did.
 
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