Is the christmas tree evil?

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estesbob said:
. . .

As I have pointed out before this whole thread is a perfect example of the error that engulfs those who turn their backs on the Church and embark upon creating their own personal Chuch based upon their own personal interpretation of scripture.
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Yes, Bob šŸ‘ ; and this sort of manipulation of Scripture is just what we see with, e.g., the JWā€™s who take a few lines of scripture (Deut. 22:22-23; Acts 5:30; 10:39) and combine them for their peculiar theology that has Our Lord put to death on a ā€œtorture stakeā€, or the Mormons who use 1 Cor. 15:29 and insist on the rightness of the baptism of the dead. Take a little bit of Scripture, put your own unique spin on it and run with it down a blind alley - where you bump into an odd assortment of other runners.
 
FCEGM said:
Yes, Bob šŸ‘ ; and this sort of manipulation of Scripture is just what we see with, e.g., the JWā€™s who take a few lines of scripture (Deut. 22:22-23; Acts 5:30; 10:39) and combine them for their peculiar theology that has Our Lord put to death on a ā€œtorture stakeā€, or the Mormons who use 1 Cor. 15:29 and insist on the rightness of the baptism of the dead. Take a little bit of Scripture, put your own unique spin on it and run with it down a blind alley - where you bump into an odd assortment of other runners.
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In this mornings OOR there was a very eloquent discourse on Christ and Salvation taken from a second century sermon. i was thinking how sad it is that so many have chosen to reject such profound wisdom because it is not contained in the Bible. Rather than draw on 2000 years of rich tradition they choose to try and figure out everything for themsleves. So instead of mulling over the marvels of Christ and salvation as put forth in this sermon they obsess over obscure verses and the true meaning of trees!
 
tabcom said:
**Is not the christmas tree the same tree that Jeremiah warns the Israelites NOT to get involved with?

Did not Ahab bring tree worship into Northern Israel?**
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Memo to estesbob and all others attempting to refute me:

If you are going to use a biblical source, you better know the context and not paraphrase it to suit your rebuttal.

OK here is the context of Jeremiah chapter 10:

Jeremiah is not condemning Christmas trees. He is condemning idolatry. The trees in Jeremiah 10 are cut down to carve them into worthless idols that will later be decorated with gold and silver. Jeremiah says nothing about Christmas trees. That custom originated in northern Europe, not in ancient Palestine.

The gods that pagans worship are nothing compared to the Lord. ā€œThese gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavensā€ (verse 11). They are mere images made by men and women. ā€œEvery goldsmith is shamed by his idols. His images are a fraud; they have no breath in them. They are worthless, the objects of mockeryā€ (verses 14-15).
 
tabcom said:
Memo to estesbob and all others attempting to refute me:

If you are going to use a biblical source, you better know the context and not paraphrase it to suit your rebuttal.
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Actually our experience so far is that if we use a bibilical source we had better interpret it the way you do-correct? So as far as context goes can you tell me how many people had Chrismas Trees in Jeremiahā€™s day?
 
estesbob said:
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_4_127.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_2_30.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/39/39_9_3.gif

smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=ZSzeb098&pp=ZNxdm801CJUS
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Too bad that those smiley things are graven idolsā€¦:angel1: ā€¦is that one really evil? or what?:bigyikes:

Interesting thing about christmas trees, though, is that they are and originally were, according to tabcom, northern european evergreen spruce-type trees.
Which did not grow within a thousand miles of Jeremiah. He never saw a european spruce - Iā€™ll bet my christmas socks on that.

What trees he might have meant were obviously local trees to him, - like palm trees, for example.
Palm tree branches were strewn along the ground at the Triumphal Entry of Jesus into Jerusalem before his Passion.
Using trees in christianity would seem to be symbolic, acceptable, and very biblical.
They can be used in a biblical way or in a pagan way.
Goshā€¦what a relief.
 
I would have to say that if a Christian is in fear that they might be spiritually weak enough to fall into idolatrous worship of a Christmas tree, then that person should definitely not get a Christmas tree.
 
runandsew said:
I would have to say that if a Christian is in fear that they might be spiritually weak enough to fall into idolatrous worship of a Christmas tree, then that person should definitely not get a Christmas tree.
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Per tabcom interpretation of jeremiah the Crosso itself could also be considered an idol
 
I guess the line is drawn on this issue, if you believe there is a difference between veneration and worship of icons and saints.

Catholics say that we can venerate icons and saints while not worshipping them.
Some non-catholics say there is no difference between veneration and worship.
There is no winning the argument, just understanding where each side stands on the issue.

So the real issue is are you going to believe God breathed scripture, or man made traditions?

Or is it God beathed Traditions?

(sorry, Iā€™ve been listening to too many James White debates
lately)šŸ™‚
 
tabcom said:
First off, for you to presume that I have no biblical training is slightly offensive. Iā€™ve sited over a dozen biblical verses. Iā€™m still waiting for someone to reply with a biblical source and explaination as to why I am incorrect in tying the tree with idolatry, which is wanting more.
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## Iā€™ve explained that twice - four times, if my two posts on Genesis 11 are included. ##

**
Even after over 200 posts with no credible biblical rebuttal, it would be presumptuous of me to come to the conclusion that the catholics posting replies to this thread are just plain ignorate. I wonā€™t do that. You shouldnā€™t either. Secondly, it is not my personal novel opinion that the tree is pagan in origin. I cannot take authorship for it.
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**
In addition, if the tree is christian in nature, how did the church survive nearly 400 years without it? Why didnā€™t Jesus, Paul, John, or any other author of the bible site it as an important part of christian faith?
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## Because ā€œChristian in natureā€ need not mean ā€œof very early Christian originā€. Jesus didnā€™t read printed books, use a knife & fork, or wear socks or a belt - does that mean Christians today cannot ? Surely it doesnā€™t mean that. Did Christians 1970 years ago read the KJV(AV) ? No. Are Christians today sinning by so doing ? No. ##

**
Because they didnā€™t need it. They had something far more powerful, they had the Holy Spirit.
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**
Ro 1:4 - who (Jesus) was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,
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## How far does one take that argument ? Many men shave - they donā€™t need to use razors; they could always grow beards. The flushing lavatory was unknown until about 200 years ago - do Christians need that ? Many people donā€™t have basic hygienic amenities even today - they have to get by without them. St. Paul didnā€™t use toothpaste, St. Peter didnā€™t wear a track suit, St. John didnā€™t have a pressure cooker or a microwave oven or a wireless, St. James didnā€™t have a Thompsonā€™s Chain Reference Bible or a motor car. Aquila & Priscilla didnā€™t go asking Apollos if they could borrow his Concordance - Cruden, Young & Strong didnā€™t invent the Biblical concordance either: a Catholic friar did that, in about 1230.

I think that youā€™re oversimplifying a good deal. Having things, does not mean worshipping them; property is given us on loan as it were, to be good stewards of it; and to enjoy, not gloomily, not possessively, but graciously & thankfully & to Godā€™s Glory, in the knowledge that it is a trust, for which we responsible, & shall by & by have to render an account.

It is not possessions that are evil, but the hearts of men - if our hearts are detached from what is not God, then possessions have no power over us. Covetousness is avoided by being dead, or by being detached - for whether one is poor or wealthy, covetousness is a possibility; not a certainty, a possibility. Even when it isnā€™t Christmas ##
 
I donā€™t really see how it is all that different to decorate oneā€™s home with a Christmas tree at Christmas than to decorate it with summer flowers in the summer time, or with potted plants in the windows at any time of the year.

Does the OP also have issues around decorating oneā€™s home with other kinds of plants, or is the Christmas tree the only one that he has an issue with?
 
jmcrae said:
I donā€™t really see how it is all that different to decorate oneā€™s home with a Christmas tree at Christmas than to decorate it with summer flowers in the summer time, or with potted plants in the windows at any time of the year.

Does the OP also have issues around decorating oneā€™s home with other kinds of plants, or is the Christmas tree the only one that he has an issue with?
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The difference is that the Christmas tree is used in a religious manner, while the summer flowers are not. But your argument could work if you were talking about using lilies at Easter time.
 
estesbob said:
Actually our experience so far is that if we use a bibilical source we had better interpret it the way you do-correct? So as far as context goes can you tell me how many people had Chrismas Trees in Jeremiahā€™s day?
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Donā€™t tell me - they got their Christmas trees from Babylon, just in time for Nimrodā€™s birthday - which was of course on December 25th. And Semiramis invented wrapping-paper as a reminder of Nimrodā€™s burial shroud.​

Which shows, O best beloved, how very Babylonian Christmas is. Who is this Baby Lon, anyway ? ##
 
tabcom said:
First off, for you to presume that I have no biblical training is slightly offensive.
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Well, gee whiz!! Sorry about thatā€¦but when somebody:rolleyes: canā€™t tell the difference between a Christmas tree & a Canaanite fertility rite, there is (more than) a little tendency on my part to wonder what Bible they are getting it fromā€¦
**
Iā€™ve sited over a dozen biblical verses.
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** Now, I havenā€™t ever sat down & counted them all myself, but on a guessā€¦There are, I think, a couple more verses in the Bible than a dozen. In point of fact, well more than a dozen have been quoted to refute you. The problem is that you are indulging in proof texting, & :nope: not very good proof texting at that.
You appear to me, to be at the stage of the man who opened his Bible every day, to get a special revelation from On High. One day, he opened to ā€œJudas went out & hanged himselfā€. He decided that needed clarification, so he opened the Scriptures once again, & read: ā€œGo, & do thou likewiseā€.

**
Iā€™m still waiting for someone to reply with a biblical source and explaination as to why I am incorrect in tying the tree with idolatry, which is wanting more.
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** No, my friend, youā€™re waiting for all of us to agree with you, & getting annoyed when we donā€™t.

**
Even after over 200 posts with no credible biblical rebuttal, it would be presumptuous of me to come to the conclusion that the catholics posting replies to this thread are just plain ignorate. I wonā€™t do that.
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** Thatā€™s good, because the posters who have answered you are anything but ignorant. We have answered time & again, & far more credibly than youā€¦The fact that you donā€™t like the answers you get, doesnā€™t make them other than credible. Open your eyes & your mind, laddy; you might learn a thing or 3!!
**
You shouldnā€™t either. Secondly, it is not my personal novel opinion that the tree is pagan in origin. I cannot take authorship for it.
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**

Well, I am glad to hear that, yean; I would rather think it was spoonfed to you than that you were confused enough to read it into Scripture yourself. There is, then,šŸ‘ hope for you yetā€¦
Gottle_of_Geer said:

Donā€™t tell me - they got their Christmas trees from Babylon, just in time for Nimrodā€™s birthday - which was of course on December 25th. And Semiramis invented wrapping-paper as a reminder of Nimrodā€™s burial shroud.​

Which shows, O best beloved, how very Babylonian Christmas is. Who is this Baby Lon, anyway ? ##
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:rolleyes: šŸ˜‰ :rolleyes:
[images.google.com/images?q=tbn:zaIDbQURgXlJpM:http://www.oldies.com/i/boxart/large/bk/bk1298.jpg](http://images.google.com/imgres?img...ages?q=lon+chaney+jr.&svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&sa=G) [images.google.com/images?q=tbn:J-94s2J3hpO4uM:http://www.saumag.edu/waterfield/recentpaintings/universal/wolfman.jpg](http://images.google.com/imgres?img...+jr.&start=20&ndsp=20&svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&sa=N) ???
 
runandsew said:
OK here is the context of Jeremiah chapter 10:

Jeremiah is not condemning Christmas trees. He is condemning idolatry. Before continuing with your commentary as to the context of this verse, would you be so kind as to explain to me what is idolatry?
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Gottle_of_Geer said:
## Iā€™ve explained that twice - four times, if my two posts on Genesis 11 are included. ##
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**
Sorry . . . I have been meaning to reply to those posts, here is my reply :**
Gottle_of_Geer said:
And Gen. 11.1-9 is not attacking idolatry - if it is attacking anything. ā€œLet us make a shem for ourselvesā€¦ā€ expresses a concern for human solidarity
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**
Did God put his approval on this solidarity?

Genesis 11:1,4 --The whole earth was of one language and one speech ā€“ they said let us build us a city and a tower and let us make us a name
Code: 
* language - Hebrew: sepheth - lip or- boundary line.
* speech - Hebrew: dabar - arrangement; spoken commandment
city and tower - considered a sovereign kingdom with its own boundary and law (commandment/instruction) (also refered to as a mountain)

name - Hebrew: shem - authority; honor; fame

Genesis 11:8,9 ā€“ So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of the whole earth

Babel later became Babylon. Babylon is the mother of harlots (see post 210). Harlots means idolatry (see post 211, 212). Babel began a series of ā€œworld orderā€ beast (ruling) systems (Dan. 2:31-45; 7:3-7). These empires, (beasts) ruled all the civilized world and fell as one conquered the other (Babylon, Persia/Medes, Greece, Rome. etc). The harlot was the ancient Chaldean idolatry passed down through the empires in the form of Greek and Roman gods (mystery religions).

Babylon fell once as a literal empire never to rise again (Jer. 51:26). The second time she will fall as a wicked idolatrous religious system of ā€œself-esteemā€ and ā€œprideā€. (Babylon is fallen, is fallen - Rev. 18:2).**
 
jmcrae said:
Does the OP also have issues around decorating oneā€™s home with other kinds of plants, or is the Christmas tree the only one that he has an issue with?
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**Once again, the christmas tree is NOT a literal idol. To most of the world, it metaphorically represents wanting more.

Wanting more = Covetousness
Covetousness = Idolatry
Wanting more = Idolatry**
 
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