Is the christmas tree evil?

[mercygate]

Tree alert, everyone! Heads up!

On this morning’s Through the Bible (J. Vernon McGee – a terrific evangelical/fundamentalist scripture guide), the post-program ad was for Dr. McGee’s talk: The Cross is God’s Christmas Tree!

 

[valient_Lucy]

**Once again, the christmas tree is NOT a literal idol. To most of the world, it metaphorically represents wanting more.

Wanting more = Covetousness
Covetousness = Idolatry
Wanting more = Idolatry**

It depends on what you want “more” of. If you want to spend more time in prayer and studying Scripture, does that count as idolatry?

In your post, you hit the nail on the head. The Christmas tree is not an idol. Now, to many people, the Christmas tree may represent greed, but if that is the case, it is the GREED that is evil, and not the tree. If a Christian looks at the tree and thinks of the sacrificial love of Christ, does that still make it evil?

 

[tabcom]

The Cross is God’s Christmas Tree!

**I like that. **

 

[runandsew]

**Once again, the christmas tree is NOT a literal idol. To most of the world, it metaphorically represents wanting more.

Wanting more = Covetousness
Covetousness = Idolatry
Wanting more = Idolatry**

So what I read out of this is that the whole commercialism of Christmas is the problem. So to a Christian who sees Advent and then Christmas as a time to prepare them self for the coming of the Lord and to celebrate the birth of their savior, and to give gifts out of love because Christ gave out of love, then the Christmas tree is not an idol, but if a person is of the world, and just celebrates the season to eat drink and be merry, and to get that weed whacker that he or she has been wanting all year long, the Christmas tree could be considered an idol.

 

[tabcom]

So what I read out of this is . . .

**Yes. **

 

[deb1]

**Yes. **

So, if runsansews has it correctly then you have no problem with a Christian who has a Christmas tree if that particular Christian understands and appreciates the true meaning of Christmas? Do I have that correct?

 

[mercygate]

**Yes. **

I don’t think anybody would disagree that the materialism of the holiday is horrific. I think that most people would say that the materialism is an artifact of living in a commercial society.

The point people are arguing here is that a Christmas tree is not a material idol.

Material idolotry, which attributes to THINGS any kind of divine identity or power, is almost non-existent in Western culture – Christian, secularist, atheist – across the board. It lingers to some extent in things like good luck charms and such, and it can even abuse religious objects by using them superstitiously, as when people might think they’ll be hit by a truck if they forget to wear their St. Whosis medal. But although such reduction is not good thing, it is also far from material idolatry.

The more dangerous problem of our culture, as you point out, is a broad consumerism that places anything and everything in the forefront of life, rather than “first the kingom of God.”

But a single object or symbol cannot be laden like the poor scapegoat with the charge. If we got rid of every Christmas tree in the world, it would by no means cure the disease of consumerism.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Well, gee whiz!! Sorry about that…but when somebody can’t tell the difference between a Christmas tree & a Canaanite fertility rite, there is (more than) a little tendency on my part to wonder what Bible they are getting it from…
Now, I haven’t ever sat down & counted them all myself, but on a guess…There are, I think, a couple more verses in the Bible than a dozen. In point of fact, well more than a dozen have been quoted to refute you. The problem is that you are indulging in proof texting, & :nope: not very good proof texting at that.
You appear to me, to be at the stage of the man who opened his Bible every day, to get a special revelation from On High. One day, he opened to “Judas went out & hanged himself”. He decided that needed clarification, so he opened the Scriptures once again, & read: “Go, & do thou likewise”.

No, my friend, you’re waiting for all of us to agree with you, & getting annoyed when we don’t.

That’s good, because the posters who have answered you are anything but ignorant. We have answered time & again, & far more credibly than you…The fact that you don’t like the answers you get, doesn’t make them other than credible. Open your eyes & your mind, laddy; you might learn a thing or 3!!
Well, I am glad to hear that, yean; I would rather think it was spoonfed to you than that you were confused enough to read it into Scripture yourself. There is, then, hope for you yet…


[images.google.com/images?q=tbn:zaIDbQURgXlJpM:http://www.oldies.com/i/boxart/large/bk/bk1298.jpg](http://images.google.com/imgres?img...ages?q=lon+chaney+jr.&svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&sa=G) [images.google.com/images?q=tbn:J-94s2J3hpO4uM:http://www.saumag.edu/waterfield/recentpaintings/universal/wolfman.jpg](http://images.google.com/imgres?img...+jr.&start=20&ndsp=20&svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&sa=N) ???

Don’t tell me you’ve never come across the “delights” of web pages which claim that everything in Christianity (especially the Catholic form of it) is from Babylon ?​

It’s a notion which is very popular in some circles. Tell-tale signs of its influence are names such as “Nimrod” & “Semiramis”.

There seemed no reason not to join in the fun, since the evidence for such an idea is slightly weak - to say the least of it. The idea is a happy hunting ground for cranks, with as much intellectual basis as the belief in UFOs; if not less.

I’m very grateful to tabcom for not using it, because that passage in Jeremiah is a favourite of the folk who espouse that idea ##

 

[tabcom]

So, if runsansews has it correctly then you have no problem with a Christian who has a Christmas tree?

**
No, I don’t have a problem with it.

My friends and family know how I feel about the tree. After the second year of me expressing my beliefs of what the tree represents, we all sort of came to the unspoken agreemet to leave each other alone around the end of the year.

I haven’t done christmas since 2001.**

 

[tabcom]

I’m very grateful to tabcom for not using it (“Nimrod” & “Semiramis”?), because that passage in Jeremiah is a favourite of the folk who espouse that idea ##

**
I’m having a hard time following your point here. Is this in some way related to my reply back to your earlier post (see #254)?**

 

[runandsew]

I can see where you feel the Christmas tree could be treated as an idol, though I would disagree that the tree mentioned in Jeremiah is pointing to the Christmas tree. Christmas trees in a shopping mall would be a good example.
I didn’t go to church growing up, and as a kid, we celebrated Christmas, we knew it was the celebration of the birth of Jesus, but that was not our focus as a family, it was family time and giving and getting gifts. I remember when the JC Penny Christmas catalogue would arrive, I would spend many hours looking through that catalogue circling all the toys that I really wanted, and dreaming how happy that rock em sock em robots, creep crawlers, and hot wheels track, would make me. Looking back on it now, I would have to say that it was the JC Penny Christmas catalogue that was my “idol” growing up, not the Christmas tree.

 

[tabcom]

**I want to return to this thread because there is much more to be discussed then whether the christmas tree is the metaphorical modern day tree that Jeremiah talks about 2600 years ago.

Book of Jeremiah 10:2
Thus says the LORD, "Do not learn the way of the nations . . .

The original Hebrew word for way is jrd.

according to searchgodsword.org:

way can mean:

     1. road, way, path
     2. journey
     3. direction
     4. manner, habit, way
     5. of course of life (fig.)
     6. of moral character (fig.)

My New American Catholic Bible translates jrd into customs:

What is the Christian Bible equivalent for ‘way’?

Matt 7:13 (Jesus said)
“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.”

The original Greek word for way is hodos.

according to searchgodsword.org:

way can mean:

1. properly
   1. a way
      1. a travelled way, road
   2. a travellers way, journey, travelling
2. metaph.
   1. a course of conduct
   2. a way (i.e. manner) of thinking, feeling, deciding

to be continued . . .

**

 

[tabcom]

You have to show that the idol’s that Jeremiah tallks about were in some way similar to the Christmas tree, or at least represented the same things.

**
Even though these scriptures no doubt had an application to the customs practiced some 2600 years ago, we must keep in mind that the book of Jeremiah is primarily prophecy. Jeremiah is a prophet of doom. Why did he prophesies the destruction of Jerusalem? Because the Israelites interrmarried God’s Truth with the lie of fulfilling the flesh.

Just as with other prophecies, this was written for our time, to our people, and referring to the common customs of the modern world.

2Tim 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof , for correction, for training in righteousness;

**

 

[tabcom]

I think that you’re oversimplifying a good deal. Having things, does not mean worshipping them;

**It is not the possession of things that is the context of Jeremiah Ch. 10. It is following the customs, which is symbolically represented by the tree.

Can you see the difference?
**

 

[FCEGM]

It is not the possession of things that is the context of Jeremiah Ch. 10. It is following the customs, which is symbolically represented by the tree. . .

Excuse me, but pish-tosh. The Christmas tree, as has been explained ad nauseum, finds its true meaning as a symbol of the plenitude of God’s grace in bestowing upon the world it’s Savior with the birth of the Incarnate Son. That this symbol seems to have been diminished by rampant consumerism, does not lessen the true Christian significance of the godly custom of including a Christmas tree as part of the celebration of the birth of Our Lord. It’s akin to rock “stars” who bedeck themselves with crosses and prance around a stage (or Madonna who hung herself from a cross). Shall we dispense with displaying crosses on our churches and wearing them around our necks now that they have become part of a distinctly non-Christian culture?

 

[valient_Lucy]

**
Even though these scriptures no doubt had an application to the customs practiced some 2600 years ago, we must keep in mind that the book of Jeremiah is primarily prophecy. Jeremiah is a prophet of doom. Why did he prophesies the destruction of Jerusalem? Because the Israelites interrmarried God’s Truth with the lie of fulfilling the flesh.

Just as with other prophecies, this was written for our time, to our people, and referring to the common customs of the modern world.

2Tim 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof , for correction, for training in righteousness;

**

There is a tendancy to equate “prophesy” with “fortune telling.” The primary function of the prophets was NOT to tell the future, but to speak for God. There is no reason to assume that Jeremiah was somehow predicting the Christmas tree, and it is rediculous, and blasphemous imo, to treat the Bible as a crystal ball.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Sorry . . . I have been meaning to reply to those posts, here is my reply :

Did God put his approval on this solidarity?

Genesis 11:1,4 --The whole earth was of one language and one speech – they said let us build us a city and a tower and let us make us a name

*** language - Hebrew: sepheth - lip or- boundary line.**
*** speech - Hebrew: dabar - arrangement; spoken commandment**

city and tower - considered a sovereign kingdom with its own boundary and law (commandment/instruction) (also refered to as a mountain)

name - Hebrew: shem - authority; honor; fame

Genesis 11:8,9 – So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of the whole earth

Babel later became Babylon. Babylon is the mother of harlots (see post 210). Harlots means idolatry (see post 211, 212). Babel began a series of “world order” beast (ruling) systems (Dan. 2:31-45; 7:3-7). These empires, (beasts) ruled all the civilized world and fell as one conquered the other (Babylon, Persia/Medes, Greece, Rome. etc). The harlot was the ancient Chaldean idolatry passed down through the empires in the form of Greek and Roman gods (mystery religions).

** ## Except that Babylonian religion is far more like that of Israel than it is like the Classical Mysteries. **

**As for Gen 11.1-9, it’s a story - not history. So it can’t be taken as evidence of God’s judgement on a particular historical event; though it may well reflect Jewish attitudes to the temple-towers of Babylonia (which were also found in Assyria). **

**None of this alters its character as inspired Scripture at all - but it can’t be used as evidence of what happened in Babylonia; largely because it can be understood in several, complementary, ways. ****## **
**

Babylon fell once as a literal empire never to rise again (Jer. 51:26). The second time she will fall as a wicked idolatrous religious system of “self-esteem” and “pride”. (Babylon is fallen, is fallen - Rev. 18:2).

** ## I’m a Preterist (largely) - ISTM that Jerusalem = Babylon the Great of Rev. 17 & 18. Which is not to deny that there are similar Babylons in the human heart & in society. ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I’m having a hard time following your point here. Is this in some way related to my reply back to your earlier post (see #254)?

**Sorry - You must be one of the few people to quote Jer.10 in ref. to Christmas trees, who has not been initiated into the dubious delights of a rather - well, extremely - absurd book which sets out to show that Catholicism is no more than a revamped version of Babylon religion. **​

It too quotes Jer.10 as a prophecy against Christmas trees. N. & S. are the starring characters. It’s been so widely influential - (it’s all over the WWW), & not just in English - that when you quoted Jer. 10 in the sense that you did, I not altogether unnaturally thought (wrongly, as I see now) that you must have been influenced by it. ##

 

[Julianna]

It is hard to believe that this thread continues.

I have spoken with my daughters boyfriend, who for the most part has agreed to come to Christmas dinner. He didn’t at first because he didnt want his 2 yr old daughter to see our Christmas tree.

He has agreed that she can open her presents from us at the dining room table, but not under the tree.

Tabcom…this is utter nonsense. There are trees everywhere, I have yet to see someone bow down to one. Jeriamiah, as I have told my daughters boyfriend, is the OLD Testament. Jesus has come and we have the NEW Testament.

He refused to let her hunt Easter Eggs last spring too. This is ridiculas. No pictures on Santa’s lap. He has agreed to let me read her the story of St. Nicholas, but only as a man, not a saint…(too Catholic). She is in pre school and he has told the teachers to take her out when they did pictures of Santa or decorated a tree. No, he is not JW…(I am grateful for that). His father is a reformed rake and is filling his head with this nonsense. I told my daughter, if you stay with this man, you will NEVER have a normal Christmas, and any children you have will NEVER see a Christmas tree in your home.

I gave her something to think about.

Tabcom…you are way off base.

 

[Zooey]

There is a tendancy to equate “prophesy” with “fortune telling.” The primary function of the prophets was NOT to tell the future, but to speak for God. There is no reason to assume that Jeremiah was somehow predicting the Christmas tree, and it is rediculous, and blasphemous imo, to treat the Bible as a crystal ball.

Lucy, thank you for this post! I have been trying to enunciate what has been disturbing me the most about this thread, & I realize you have put your finger on it…
God bless, and again, thank you.