Is the christmas tree evil?

[Zooey]

It is hard to believe that this thread continues.

I have spoken with my daughters boyfriend, who for the most part has agreed to come to Christmas dinner. He didn’t at first because he didnt want his 2 yr old daughter to see our Christmas tree.

He has agreed that she can open her presents from us at the dining room table, but not under the tree.

Tabcom…this is utter nonsense. There are trees everywhere, I have yet to see someone bow down to one. Jeriamiah, as I have told my daughters boyfriend, is the OLD Testament. Jesus has come and we have the NEW Testament.

He refused to let her hunt Easter Eggs last spring too. This is ridiculas. No pictures on Santa’s lap. He has agreed to let me read her the story of St. Nicholas, but only as a man, not a saint…(too Catholic). She is in pre school and he has told the teachers to take her out when they did pictures of Santa or decorated a tree. No, he is not JW…(I am grateful for that). His father is a reformed rake and is filling his head with this nonsense. I told my daughter, if you stay with this man, you will NEVER have a normal Christmas, and any children you have will NEVER see a Christmas tree in your home.

I gave her something to think about.

Tabcom…you are way off base.

Julianna, this is, I know, no comfort when you are in the middle of this, but I will say that I have been grieving since Thanksgiving over the discovery that one of my cousins…Her husband has been caught up in this same nonsense, & they are no longer celebrating Christmas at all…He has made the pronouncement that Christmas (and most other holidays as well) is pagan…
http://bestsmileys.com/crying/5.gif
They are Baptists…

 

[tabcom]

It is hard to believe that this thread continues.

Tabcom…this is utter nonsense. There are trees everywhere, I have yet to see someone bow down to one.

**It is not literal trees that is evil. It is the metaphorical representation of them.

Luke 12:15 And he (Jesus) said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Covetousness = Idolatry

covetousness- greek: pleonektes- to want more; greediness

Idolatry = wanting more

Every man is covetous by nature until God deals with him and causes him to repent (turn from self to God). The word devil (daimon) means to distribute fortunes. A covetous man who “wants more” has a devil. Covetousness is the idolatrous worship of self. It is an idolatry as evil as falling down before Baal, the christmas tree, the golden calf, or anyone of the ancient pagan deities of Babylon.

Paul said, “having food and raiment, let us be there with content” (I Tim. 6:8). He also said, “I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.” (Phil. 4:11).

Men, myself included, are involved in idolatry when they refuse to be content with what they have. Their hearts cry out, “I want more.”
**

as I have told my daughters boyfriend, is the OLD Testament. Jesus has come and we have the NEW Testament.

**
I refer you what Jesus said regarding the ‘OLD Testament’:

Matt 5:18 “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.”

. We use phrases like “the dotting of the i, and the crossing of the t”. The meaning of the passage is very clear. Not even the smallest letter or even its decorative spur will ever disappear until the end of time.**

 

[jmcrae]

Jeremiah didn’t know anything about Christmas trees.

What Jeremiah was talking about, we can’t even think about anymore, it is so far gone from our way of thinking.

We not only don’t worship trees as gods, we can’t even imagine thinking that they are gods. We think of gods as spiritual beings. We are so inculcated in that way of thinking that it would be literally impossible for a person from our culture to think that a tree was a god.

The problem that Jeremiah was working with has been solved. He succeeded in getting the people to realize that physical objects don’t have divinity - that the Creator is not any created thing.

 

[tabcom]

one of my cousins…Her husband has been caught up in this same nonsense, & they are no longer celebrating Christmas at all…He has made the pronouncement that Christmas (and most other holidays as well) is pagan…

**Here’s my prediction for your cousin and her family:

At first, their proclaimation that christmas is pagan is met with alarm by the family. Then the family tries to make peace by ‘not talking about it’ or tries to dress the ‘holiday’ up to not be offensive to the party that is willing to take a stand against christmas. After about two years, when that doesn’t work, the family members stop talking to one another all together.

Because their sense of family tradition has been severed, the family members that continue to do Christmas will have emotional pain that will never go away. For the baby believer that takes a stand and is willing to die for what they believe in, they grow in Christ. Like a baby, their hunger for the Truth leads them from a diet of milk to solid foods. (Heb. 5:10-14)**

 

[mercygate]

Julianna, this is, I know, no comfort when you are in the middle of this, but I will say that I have been grieving since Thanksgiving over the discovery that one of my cousins…Her husband has been caught up in this same nonsense, & they are no longer celebrating Christmas at all…He has made the pronouncement that Christmas (and most other holidays as well) is pagan…
http://bestsmileys.com/crying/5.gif
They are Baptists…

BAPTISTS!!! Incredible. Yet this is a return to older practice. My Dutch Reform forebears certainly would not have celebrated Christmas, nor did the Puritans who first landed on Plymouth Rock, but it wasn’t because Christmas was “pagan” (because that’s just plain stupid, and the Puritans were not stupid) but because the celebration is not specified in the Bible.

Honoring the birth of Our Lord by celebrations and by renewal of fellowship with friends, by works of charity, by praising him in little ways as well as great, is a way of bringing us closer to him.

I am not a Hindu, but my Hindu friends invited me to their Diwali party. I went and had a wonderful time. I went in friendship and out of respect for them as good people. I did not preach a sermon to them on the evil of their pagan ways. I have invited them to our Christmas party on December 29. They will come. They will have a good time. They will meet Christians and Jews and one Muslim (well, a rather denatured Muslim). We will part as colleagues and friends at the end of the evening.

If my Christmas tree is the rallying point for building bridges, then bring it on! I will not compromise my faith, nor would my friends expect me to do so.

It is one thing not to put up a Christmas tree in your own house but refusing to join family or friends because they celebrate the holiday is quite another.

Heck! I get along better with my Mormon relatives than the nay-sayers on this thread do with fellow Christians.

 

[jmcrae]

For the baby believer that takes a stand and is willing to die for what they believe in, they grow in Christ. Like a baby, their hunger for the Truth leads them from a diet of milk to solid foods. (Heb. 5:10-14)

Just what, exactly, does a “baby believer” gain by refusing to acknowledge the Incarnation of Jesus Christ? Doesn’t he put himself in danger of thinking that Jesus was pure spirit in the disguise of a man, when he denies the physical birth of Christ into the world?

 

[tequilamac]

Is there any question? Has anyone seen the prices this year at the tree lots? Let’s put it this way- the christmas tree did less evil to my pocket book last year than it did this year.

 

[Zooey]

**

tabcom:

It is not literal trees that is evil. It is the metaphorical representation of them.

**

Okay, everybody!! We have the final word here… It is fine to worship literal trees, Christmas or otherwise.
On the other hand, worshipping a metaphorical tree is a pagan Babylonian practice.

I have a very large blue spruce in my front yard. It is going to need to come down any time in the next couple years or so, so I would like to invite everyone to come decorate & http://bestsmileys.com/lol/3.gifworship the Literal Blue Spruce, before it becomes a Metaphorical Representaion of a Tree, & thus sinful.
**Tabcom, you don’t need to come. I know it is against your religion, & besides I only have room on my lawn for :bowdown: :bowdown: …Not: **http://bestsmileys.com/nono/1.gif
Sorry about that…

 

[tequilamac]

---

---

Okay, everybody!! We have the final word here… It is fine to worship literal trees, Christmas or otherwise.
On the other hand, worshipping a metaphorical tree is a pagan Babylonian practice.

---

I have a very large blue spruce in my front yard. It is going to need to come down any time in the next couple years or so, so I would like to invite everyone to come decorate & worship the Literal Blue Spruce, before it becomes a Metaphorical Representaion of a Tree, & thus sinful.
Tabcom, you don’t need to come. I know it is against your religion, & besides I only have room on my lawn for :bowdown: :bowdown: …
Sorry about that…

I’d love to come. I’ll bring the oil paints so that we can draw a surrealistic representation of your tree for our metaphorical pinings next year.

And by the way I stick to what I said in the beginning- the Christmas tree is not evil but the price is simply awful. Your tree is probably in great grace as it will cost you nothing.

 

[Zooey]

I’d love to come. I’ll bring the oil paints so that we can draw a surrealistic representation of your tree for our metaphorical pinings next year.

And by the way I stick to what I said in the beginning- the Christmas tree is not evil but the price is simply awful. Your tree is probably in great grace as it will cost you nothing.

And it never has…It was planted by my father in 1939, for my grandparents. He worked at a Christmas tree farm back then, & it was one of the “thinnings” that he picked off the rubbish. There are trees everywhere my family live around here, that Daddy planted back then.

 

[tequilamac]

And by the way I stick to what I said in the beginning- the Christmas tree is not evil but the price is simply awful. Your tree is probably in great grace as it will cost you nothing.

And it never has…It was planted by my father in 1939, for my grandparents. He worked at a Christmas tree farm back then, & it was one of the “thinnings” that he picked off the rubbish. There are trees everywhere my family live around here, that Daddy planted back then.

That is sooooo cool I can’t tell you. Gives me an idea for a new tradition.

 

[tabcom]

Just what, exactly, does a “baby believer” gain by refusing to acknowledge the Incarnation of Jesus Christ? Doesn’t he put himself in danger of thinking that Jesus was pure spirit in the disguise of a man, when he denies the physical birth of Christ into the world?

**jmcrae . . . by the way you frame these two questions, it leaves me with the impression that you believe that by not doing christmas, one is preforming anti-christ behavior.

If my impression is correct, please allow me to give personal testemony from a christian that hasn’t done christmas since 2001. I do believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that Mary was a virgin, and that He was born in a manger (see selected verses). However, the christmas tree has nothing to do with any of that. The tree pre-dates the birth of Christ.

Mt 1:23 -
“BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.”

Mt 1:25 -
but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Lu 1:27 -
to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.

Mt 1:18 -
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.

Mt 1:25 - but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Lu 1:14 -
"You will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth.

Lu 2:7 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
And she gave birth to her firstborn son; and she wrapped Him in cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.

Lu 2:12 -
“This {will be} a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”

Lu 2:16 -
So they came in a hurry and found their way to Mary and Joseph, and the baby as He lay in the manger.

**

 

[tequilamac]

**jmcrae . . . by the way you frame these two questions, it leaves me with the impression that you believe that by not doing christmas, one is preforming anti-christ behavior.

If my impression is correct, please allow me to give personal testemony from a christian that hasn’t done christmas since 2001. I do believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that Mary was a virgin, and that He was born in a manger (see selected verses). However, the christmas tree has nothing to do with any of that. The tree pre-dates the birth of Christ.

Mt 1:23 -
“BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.”

Mt 1:25 -
but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Lu 1:27 -
to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.

Mt 1:18 -
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.

Mt 1:25 - but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Lu 1:14 -
"You will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth.

Lu 2:7 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
And she gave birth to her firstborn son; and she wrapped Him in cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.

Lu 2:12 -
“This {will be} a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”

Lu 2:16 -
So they came in a hurry and found their way to Mary and Joseph, and the baby as He lay in the manger.

**

Well that is interesting. What does any of this have to do with a Christmas tree? Where does it say do not use a tree or please decorate a tree? Where does it say drink eggnog don’t drink eggnog?

So this part of the New Testament helped you to not “do” Christmas since 2001? I wonder if this is the part that inspired the JW’s not to do Christmas since 1920.

 

[raikou]

QUESTION: Should we celebrate the birth of our Lord?

Luke 2:11,13-14 For today in the city of David a savior has been born for you who is Messiah and Lord. And suddenly there was a multitude of heavenly host with the angel, praising God and saying: “Glory to God in the highest and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests.”

Imagine the splendor of that event. That’s one big celebration.

As for the Christmas tree question: please keep in mind that worshipping any creation, be it a snowball, dust, broom, or teddy bear is always a sin - treating them as gods - is an evil thing to do. Catholicism forbids that. This action with the intention of making gods out of a tree, a rock, or whatever creation, is evil. A Catholic living by his sound faith would be careful not to do that.

On the other hand, be assured that no creation is evil by itself (unless by its own will, it departs from God).

cf. Genesis 1:12 “…the earth brought forth every kind of plant that bears seed and every kind of fruit tree… God saw how good it was.”

By the same logic, no Christmas tree is evil by itself.

On the other hand, using symbols to proclaim God’s message is of course not evil, as Jesus himself used parables and symbols in his teachings. He used things in ordinary life that pointed to some truth he wanted to convey. For example, a lamp, as a symbol of Christians being the light of the world (Mattew 5:14-15) or a mustard seed growing to be the biggest plant where the birds flock for shelter, as a symbol for the kingdom of heaven (Mark 4:30-34). Even in the Old testament, God used symbols that point to Jesus Christ, like the lamb that was slain in Passover (Exodus 12) or the bronze serpent on the pole pointing to Christ on the Cross (Numbers 21:9; John 3:14-15).

Knowing this, will you say that the use of candles in the Holy Mass to remind people of Christ as the light of the world is sinful? The same answer will apply to use of Christmas lights which convey the same message. And if St. Boniface indeed use the evergreen tree to proclaim the everlasting life in Chirst as Della writes…

As I recall, St. Boniface used the evergreen fir tree as both a symbol of the Trinity (because of its triangular shape) and of everlasting life in Christ, because evergreens do not lose their green color and do not appear to die in winter.

…the use of Christmas tree in the celebration of our Savior’s birth is not only not sinful, but positively meaningful as well in proclaiming Christ.

So when you see glittering Christmas light, don’t say “Oh here are the pagans doing their thing again…” but rather, inspired by their message, say “Blessed be Jesus Christ, the light of the world!”

When you were given a beatifully wrapped gift, don’t say “Don’t involve me with your pagan customs…” but say, “Blessed be Jesus Christ, God’s greatest gift to all men!”

And when spotting Christmas trees adorned by people with great joy, don’t say “Oh please, not the evil tree again…” but say, “Blessed be Jesus Christ, the cause of my great joy! For in the past I was dead, but in Christ I was given eternal life.”

 

[tequilamac]

**Here’s my prediction for your cousin and her family:

At first, their proclaimation that christmas is pagan is met with alarm by the family. Then the family tries to make peace by ‘not talking about it’ or tries to dress the ‘holiday’ up to not be offensive to the party that is willing to take a stand against christmas. After about two years, when that doesn’t work, the family members stop talking to one another all together.

Because their sense of family tradition has been severed, the family members that continue to do Christmas will have emotional pain that will never go away. For the baby believer that takes a stand and is willing to die for what they believe in, they grow in Christ. Like a baby, their hunger for the Truth leads them from a diet of milk to solid foods. (Heb. 5:10-14)**

Good heavens. You are a Jehovah Witness correct? This is exactly the line they take. Even if you are not- have you asked anyone about the pain of those who are disallowed from celebrating Christ’s birthday?

I assume by this time you have also stopped celebrating Easter, Veteran’s Day, Mother’s Day, Father’s Day and your children’s birthday.

What I told the kids next door when they moaned about the fact that their parents would not celebrate their birthdays and they had never had a Christmas was to look on the bright side. Think of all the money Daddy is saving. somehow, it just didn’t seem to perk them up much.
But isn’t that the real reason many people stop celebrating? It is too expensive?

 

[tabcom]

So this part of the New Testament helped you to not “do” Christmas since 2001?

**
I’m sorry. I did not make myself clear. My post was in response to jmcrae’s misunderstanding that by not doing christmas was denying the birth of Christ. I sited the verses that I did to support my believe that yes Christ was born of a virgin and is the Son of God. Therefore, not doing christmas and believing that Christ is the Saviour of the world are not mutually exclusive.**

You are a Jehovah Witness correct?

No. I am not. I was a Catholic for 32 years. I’ll be 44 on New Years Day. I don’t even know what Jehovah Witnesses believe in.

have you asked anyone about the pain of those who are disallowed from celebrating Christ’s birthday?

**
Instead of placing the focus on a little baby in a manger that is cute, lovable and doesn’t call down anyone, my family prefers to lean on the Word, that is the Living God:

Luke 13:23 And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there {just} a few who are being saved?” And He said to them, 24 "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, many will seek to enter and will not be able.

That word strive is an interesting word. In the original greek text it is Agonizomai - ag-o-nid’-zom-ahee. We get our word agony from it.

Howabout . . .

“We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.” Acts 14:22

Tribulation - from the original greek word Thlipsis - thlip’-sis.
a pressing, pressing together, pressure
metaph. oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits

I would associate pain with agony and distress. Therefore, if a family member is feeling pain over me not participating in their christmas rituals, I pray for them to come to a complete understanding of who Christ is; not who He was as a mere baby.
**

 

[mercygate]

jmcrae . . . by the way you frame these two questions, it leaves me with the impression that you believe that by not doing christmas, one is preforming anti-christ behavior.

Well, in these times, you have a lot of company. “Happy Holidays” tabcom. Welcome to the Christ-free non-Christmas zone.

 

[mercygate]

I’m sorry. I did not make myself clear. My post was in response to jmcrae’s misunderstanding that by not doing christmas was denying the birth of Christ. I sited the verses that I did to support my believe that yes Christ was born of a virgin and is the Son of God. Therefore, not doing christmas and believing that Christ is the Saviour of the world are not mutually exclusive.
No. I am not. I was a Catholic for 32 years. I’ll be 44 on New Years Day. I don’t even know what Jehovah Witnesses believe in.

It disturbs me to hear you say that you were Catholic for 32 years. If that is true, then you were either asleep or theologically deprived. When you tell people you were Catholic, you are telling what amounts to a lie. For a ‘real’ Catholic to slide down this bizarre slope took some help – and it was not from the Holy Spirit.

For Jesus Christ, King of Glory and Savior of the world to have come into the world as a baby, “adorable and innocent” and for him to have reconciled the world to himself by the blood of the cross are not mutually exclusive. We do not celebrate Christmas at the expense of Good Friday. We do not celebrate Christmas at the expense of Easter.

I don’t know where you get this stuff, but I can’t believe you’re making it up all by yourself. I invite you to come back home and grab hold of the fullnes of the beauty and power of the Christian faith in her Christ-given Church. You’re only one good confession away. C’mon back! The door’s open.

 

[I_Leatherman]

**
I’m sorry. I did not make myself clear. My post was in response to jmcrae’s misunderstanding that by not doing christmas was denying the birth of Christ. I sited the verses that I did to support my believe that yes Christ was born of a virgin and is the Son of God. Therefore, not doing christmas and believing that Christ is the Saviour of the world are not mutually exclusive.**
No. I am not. I was a Catholic for 32 years. I’ll be 44 on New Years Day. I don’t even know what Jehovah Witnesses believe in.
**
Instead of placing the focus on a little baby in a manger that is cute, lovable and doesn’t call down anyone, my family prefers to lean on the Word, that is the Living God:

Luke 13:23 And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there {just} a few who are being saved?” And He said to them, 24 "Strive** to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, many will seek to enter and will not be able.

That word strive is an interesting word. In the original greek text it is Agonizomai - ag-o-nid’-zom-ahee. We get our word agony from it.

Howabout . . .

“We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.” Acts 14:22

Tribulation - from the original greek word Thlipsis - thlip’-sis.
a pressing, pressing together, pressure
metaph. oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits

I would associate pain with agony and distress. Therefore, if a family member is feeling pain over me not participating in their christmas rituals, I pray for them to come to a complete understanding of who Christ is; not who He was as a mere baby.

I think my translation is :
‘…fight your way in through the narrow door…’

You said that you, also, read the scriptural account of Christs birth.
How do you feel about that as you read and think about it.
Are you indifferent, cross, grateful …etc.
Christmas - truly - is you, tabcom, reading the account of Christs birth into this world, whilst at the same time feeling even a modicum of gratitude towards Him for that Event.
If you feel your gratitude for that event - you have already celebrated Christmas, almost Catholic style, no matter what the date or time or place it happens to be.

 

[tabcom]

I think my translation is :
‘…fight your way in through the narrow door…’

** I was quoting from my New American Bible from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

Regardless of the English translation, i.e. ‘strive’ or ‘fight’, the original Greek text word is still agonizomai.**

How do you feel about (Christ birth)?

** When I was eight, I was moved by the story taught in Mass. However, when I was told that Santa Claus didn’t exist, I felt like if my parents could lie to me about Santa Claus, then they could also be lying about Jesus.

Can you see the confusion that taking pagan symbols, like the tree, and trying to clean them up and call them christian can cause in the eyes of a baby believer? **