C
Church_Militant
Guest
And you believe everything that you read Tabcom?
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T
tequilamac
Guest
I see. Well thank you for teaching us about how to be witches. How long have you been one? And how many more serpent given apples would you like us to eat today? Perhaps you would like to educate us on the rites for the Spring solstice.
Why stop at two apples for us to eat? Why not give us three? The serpent is slithering here tabcom.
E
Eden
Guest
I’m just jumping into this thread on page 7, so I apologize if this article from the CA library, “The Anti-Christ at the Manger”, has been mentioned already:
The popular myth concerning the pagan origin of Christmas trees exemplifies this puritanical phobia. In reality the Christmas tree tradition is derived from the Paradise tree, which was adorned with apples on December 24 in honor of Adam and Eve, whose transgression is reversed by the coming of Jesus, the Second Adam (Rom. 5:12-19), on the next day.
The tree was originally a stage prop used in medieval German plays of mankind’s fall from grace, and in time people began the practice of having trees in their own homes on that day. Our contemporary custom of adorning Christmas trees with balls likely arose from those prop apples. The Encyclopedia Americana (International Ed.) relates a widely held belief that it was Martin Luther who originated the custom of Christmas trees in Germany: “The sight of an evergreen tree on Christmas Eve, with stars blazing above, is said to have made a great impression on him, and he put up a similar tree, decorated with lighted candles, in his home” (Danbury: Grolier, 1991), 6:667. The first proper “Christmas tree” as such is found at Strasbourg in 1605.].
When shown there’s nothing to fear from Christmas trees, antagonists will cite Jeremiah 10:3-4 (King James Version, of course) to “prove” that God scorns them nonetheless: “For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.” The prophet is here condemning idolatry, but, taken out of context, the passage might seem to suggest someone cutting down a Christmas tree, nailing it to a stand, and decorating it with glittering baubles.
The Hebrew word huqqot, which the King James translators have rendered as “customs” in Jeremiah 10:3, is better translated in this verse as “statutes,” as in religious ordinances (Ex. 27:21, Lev. 18:3). The religion of the people is a delusion, says Jeremiah, and he then describes the construction of an idol which is similar to descriptions in other parts of the Old Testament (Ps. 115:4, 135:15; Is. 2:20, 31:7, 40:18-20, 41:7, 44:9-20, 46:5-7; Hab. 2:19). The tree was felled, carved, overlaid with silver and gold, and finally made sturdy by nailing it down to prevent it from toppling over (1 Sam. 5:1-4, Is. 41:7). In an exquisite touch of satire, Jeremiah describes the idol dressed in royal blue and purple garments (Jer. 10:9) as being “like a scarecrow in a melon patch” (v. 5).
Unless one intends to accuse the person with a Christmas tree of idolatry, Jeremiah 10:3-4 is simply irrelevant to the issue. [Even Ralph Woodrow, who devotes an entire chapter to excoriating Christmas in his virulently anti-Catholic *Babylon Mystery Religion (Riverside: Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Association, 1966 [1990 edition], 145), concedes that Jeremiah 10:3-4 is taken out of context. “The people in the days of Jeremiah, as the context shows, were actually making an idol out of the tree, the word
Still, the vestiges of paganism found in Christmas festivities aren’t to be overlooked. Holly, mistletoe, yule logs, singing, cooking special foods, and decorating the home were all once associated with this time of year in the non-Christian world. Once converted, people did not think of banning these things. They continued to sing, eat big meals, and decorate their homes because these customs were viewed as intrinsically compatible with the new faith. It was paganism that Christianity opposed, not the culture of the people being evangelized. This is why, for example, we still exchange rings and throw rice at weddings even though these customs are holdovers from paganism. Indeed, the early Christians would never have used the fish as a symbol of Christ if they’d disdained every token of paganism.
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9312fea1.asp
The popular myth concerning the pagan origin of Christmas trees exemplifies this puritanical phobia. In reality the Christmas tree tradition is derived from the Paradise tree, which was adorned with apples on December 24 in honor of Adam and Eve, whose transgression is reversed by the coming of Jesus, the Second Adam (Rom. 5:12-19), on the next day.
The tree was originally a stage prop used in medieval German plays of mankind’s fall from grace, and in time people began the practice of having trees in their own homes on that day. Our contemporary custom of adorning Christmas trees with balls likely arose from those prop apples. The Encyclopedia Americana (International Ed.) relates a widely held belief that it was Martin Luther who originated the custom of Christmas trees in Germany: “The sight of an evergreen tree on Christmas Eve, with stars blazing above, is said to have made a great impression on him, and he put up a similar tree, decorated with lighted candles, in his home” (Danbury: Grolier, 1991), 6:667. The first proper “Christmas tree” as such is found at Strasbourg in 1605.].
When shown there’s nothing to fear from Christmas trees, antagonists will cite Jeremiah 10:3-4 (King James Version, of course) to “prove” that God scorns them nonetheless: “For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.” The prophet is here condemning idolatry, but, taken out of context, the passage might seem to suggest someone cutting down a Christmas tree, nailing it to a stand, and decorating it with glittering baubles.
The Hebrew word huqqot, which the King James translators have rendered as “customs” in Jeremiah 10:3, is better translated in this verse as “statutes,” as in religious ordinances (Ex. 27:21, Lev. 18:3). The religion of the people is a delusion, says Jeremiah, and he then describes the construction of an idol which is similar to descriptions in other parts of the Old Testament (Ps. 115:4, 135:15; Is. 2:20, 31:7, 40:18-20, 41:7, 44:9-20, 46:5-7; Hab. 2:19). The tree was felled, carved, overlaid with silver and gold, and finally made sturdy by nailing it down to prevent it from toppling over (1 Sam. 5:1-4, Is. 41:7). In an exquisite touch of satire, Jeremiah describes the idol dressed in royal blue and purple garments (Jer. 10:9) as being “like a scarecrow in a melon patch” (v. 5).
Unless one intends to accuse the person with a Christmas tree of idolatry, Jeremiah 10:3-4 is simply irrelevant to the issue. [Even Ralph Woodrow, who devotes an entire chapter to excoriating Christmas in his virulently anti-Catholic *Babylon Mystery Religion (Riverside: Ralph Woodrow Evangelistic Association, 1966 [1990 edition], 145), concedes that Jeremiah 10:3-4 is taken out of context. “The people in the days of Jeremiah, as the context shows, were actually making an idol out of the tree, the word
workman' being not merely a lumberjack, but one who formed idols (cf. Isaiah 40:19, 20, Hosea 8:4-6). The word axe’ refers here specifically to a carving tool. In citing this portion of Jeremiah, we do not mean to infer that people who today place Christmas trees in their homes or churches are worshipping these trees.” Then what exactly does he mean by citing verses condemning idolatry when discussing the custom of decorating Christmas trees? “Such customs do, however, provide vivid examples of how mixtures have been made.” Woodrow doesn’t elaborate further].Still, the vestiges of paganism found in Christmas festivities aren’t to be overlooked. Holly, mistletoe, yule logs, singing, cooking special foods, and decorating the home were all once associated with this time of year in the non-Christian world. Once converted, people did not think of banning these things. They continued to sing, eat big meals, and decorate their homes because these customs were viewed as intrinsically compatible with the new faith. It was paganism that Christianity opposed, not the culture of the people being evangelized. This is why, for example, we still exchange rings and throw rice at weddings even though these customs are holdovers from paganism. Indeed, the early Christians would never have used the fish as a symbol of Christ if they’d disdained every token of paganism.
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9312fea1.asp
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Thanks Eden… I hadn’t read that before. 
Pax Tecum,
Pax Tecum,
T
tabcom
Guest
To all that have not followed this thread from the begining, these statements are in accordance with what I’ve stated earlier.
**IMHO, I have elaborated on this further within this thread.
I would be happy to reprint prior posts upon request. **
Here is where we diverge.
Z
Zooey
Guest
:clapping:
Exactly what I was thinking!!:whacky:
http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/7.gif
I seriously do not want to see Tabcom’s
floors!! None of these:http://bestsmileys.com/cleaning/11.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/nono/1.gif
J
JonathanKinsman
Guest
Tabcom;
Your literalist view of the Bible is alarming.
You must be a very edgy person. I am sorry for your situation and I hope and pray you take a more Christian view of history and its traditions and documents.
Remember, there is no point to randomly choosing snippets of verses and stitching them into a crazy quilt of proto-puritanical fundamentalism. God is love. There is no secret code and the OT prophets do NOT speak to us, they speak to the chosen people who faltered in following God’s covenant with them.
Heck, if I take your tack on things, then my full name translates as “The gift of God sent to Judge (Daniel) the people.”
Finally, single words do not a doctrine make. Stick to reading the whole in its context and towards the Cycle of Redemption.
Your literalist view of the Bible is alarming.
You must be a very edgy person. I am sorry for your situation and I hope and pray you take a more Christian view of history and its traditions and documents.
Remember, there is no point to randomly choosing snippets of verses and stitching them into a crazy quilt of proto-puritanical fundamentalism. God is love. There is no secret code and the OT prophets do NOT speak to us, they speak to the chosen people who faltered in following God’s covenant with them.
Heck, if I take your tack on things, then my full name translates as “The gift of God sent to Judge (Daniel) the people.”
Finally, single words do not a doctrine make. Stick to reading the whole in its context and towards the Cycle of Redemption.
T
tabcom
Guest
**No, I don’t think off myself as edgy.
I can think of seven words that I strive to be:
Code:
* poor
* mournerful
* hungry
* persecuted for seeking righteousness
* meek
* merciful
* pure of heart
* peacemaker****Welcome to the thread. As a courtesy to you and all newcomers, I’m reprinting an earlier post here:
"Once again, the christmas tree is NOT a literal idol. To most of the world, it metaphorically represents wanting more.
Wanting more = Covetousness
Covetousness = Idolatry
Wanting more = Idolatry
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry."
Message to Zooey:
I’ve stated this point on several occassions. I know you’ve read it because you continue to reply back with entertaining and colorful posts of no intellectual value that attempt to discredit me as a literalist. If you would be so kind as to tell me if you agree with or disagree with the preceding statement that I have reprinted on numerous occassions, then I would consider replying to any future post you may present to the thread.
**
Help me understand how this statement disproves this entire thread.
T
tequilamac
Guest
You do realize that what you do not like at all in others is the sin within yourself, don’t you?
T
tequilamac
Guest
**No, I don’t think off myself as edgy.
I can think of seven words that I strive to be:
**Welcome to the thread. As a courtesy to you and all newcomers, I’m reprinting an earlier post here:Code:* poor * mournerful * hungry * persecuted for seeking righteousness * meek * merciful * pure of heart * peacemaker**
"Once again, the christmas tree is NOT a literal idol. To most of the world, it metaphorically represents wanting more.
Wanting more = Covetousness
Covetousness = Idolatry
Wanting more = Idolatry
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry."
**
Still striving for those things are you? Would it surprise you to know that many of us catholics who have christmas trees do not need to strive for those things you seek? We are already there.
I will be having a Christmas tree. We will cut it down this week.
I own a bakery that does not sell in a slow market and do not have a dime to my name. I gave it all away last year.
I am mournful for my “friends” who believe I’m cursed because I’m broke. I have no money for presents for my kids. We went out in the snow and chopped firewood because we cannot afford to run the heaters.
I’m not sure at all how we are going to eat this month. My husband and I were discussing it last night.
But I am going to put up lights in my bakery and a tree in my house with lights on it. And a candle in the window.
And in the meantime I am surrounded by JW’s putting watchtowers on the steps of my building and Bereans putting chick tracts on my tables. They are not suffering at all and tend to spout that I am broke because I am Catholic and displeasing to God as such as if being poor is a curse rather than a blessing although they carry on about how holy it is to be poor. Very confused people like you.
And if I just literally followed the Gospel, I too could achieve financial freedom. Sorry, don’t believe that. I’ve already achieved freedom from finances. I don’t have finances.
So you are striving for what I have already been given by God.
It would seem to me then that you should convert immediately for Catholicism is a shortcut.
But no, in the meantime you come here to the Catholic forum and spout pious platitudes about how you want to be hungry and poor etc. to a bunch of Catholics who have their cups running over. Have a nice wild goose chase.
Because the only way in the world to obtain that which you seek is within the Church.
Z
Zooey
Guest
And as for me…Consider my
signature!!Mine means “Heaven”. Clearly, this means
I am one of the
“Elect”, & therefore, apparently, need not Worry My Pretty Little Head over where I may end up…:nope: NOT!Hey, you started it; in my part of the world, that means you get to finish it!!
As to your statement: I dinna agree with anything you say, laddie. I have been reading this thread for many a long &:yawn: hour, & you have yet to say anything of any lasting value .
You need to learn to:yup: read the Bible in context, not just cherry-pick it to suit your own preconceievd notions…You will be amazed, if you will only try it. Instead of
making up interpretations as you go along…[SIGN]
Note: I have never claimed to be an “intellectual”; I am, however, positively addicted to orthodox theology & rational thinking. I also confess that I know that you find this annoying…
Learn to live with it, laddy; I’m not changing my personality any time soon.
[/SIGN]
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tabcom
Guest
If you would be so kind as to tell me if you agree with or disagree with "the christmas tree is NOT a literal idol."
Thank you for clarifying this for me.
M
mercygate
Guest
Not speaking for Zooey here, but the Christmas tree is not any kind of idol, literal or otherwise. Period.
To lade it with damnation based on a single verse from Jeremiah that actually has nothing whatsoever to do with trees in themselves just makes this whole discussion an exercise in delirium.
You seem to have a real hunger for Scripture. Have you checked into St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology? The Genesis to Jesus course – an overview of the entire Bible in its unity – is outstanding. On line courses are free. Outstanding!
To lade it with damnation based on a single verse from Jeremiah that actually has nothing whatsoever to do with trees in themselves just makes this whole discussion an exercise in delirium.
You seem to have a real hunger for Scripture. Have you checked into St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology? The Genesis to Jesus course – an overview of the entire Bible in its unity – is outstanding. On line courses are free. Outstanding!
T
tabcom
Guest
**
Mercygate . . . in your own words, what exactly is idolatry?**
**To imply that I have condemned anyone for having a christmas tree is misleading.
I have not.
**
M
mercygate
Guest
Let me quote the *Catechism: “*Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc.”
I submit that nobody who puts up a Christmas tree attributes to it ANYTHING divine.
You say it is a symbol of greed. Good for you. We who enjoy this simple custom say it is a symbol of the everlasting life of Christ, of hope for life in a sin-deadened world, of the light of Christ shining in the darkness.
I implied nothing of the kind. I said that you are damning the tree.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Bravo, mercygate.
Tab, honestly, you appear to be about the only person on this forum, and possibly in the world who finds that the Christmas tree a symbol of ‘wanting more’ and, further, making the leap that only ‘covetousness’ equals idolatry. It does not. They are not interchangeable, or synonyms.
I think we’ll simply have to agree to disagree regarding your opinion about the Christmas tree and your opinion regarding what you think Jeremiah meant, thank you very much.
I also think it’s about time this thread was closed. The OP has had his original question “Is the Christmas tree evil” answered fully, with thorough concise documentation.
No.
There. Let’s move on, shall we?
Tab, honestly, you appear to be about the only person on this forum, and possibly in the world
who finds that the Christmas tree a symbol of ‘wanting more’ and, further, making the leap that only ‘covetousness’ equals idolatry. It does not. They are not interchangeable, or synonyms.I think we’ll simply have to agree to disagree regarding your opinion about the Christmas tree and your opinion regarding what you think Jeremiah meant, thank you very much.
I also think it’s about time this thread was closed. The OP has had his original question “Is the Christmas tree evil” answered fully, with thorough concise documentation.
No.
There. Let’s move on, shall we?
V
valient_Lucy
Guest
Adam and Eve did not want to replace God with the tree. They wanted to replace God with themselves. If idolatry is to worship something else other than God, then they worshipped themselves, not the tree.
Z
Zooey
Guest
:yup:Go right ahead &:yup: speak for me; you are
taking the words right out of my mouth!!Let me quote the *Catechism: “*Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc.”
I submit that nobody who puts up a Christmas tree attributes to it ANYTHING divine.
You say it is a symbol of greed. Good for you. We who enjoy this simple custom say it is a symbol of the everlasting life of Christ, of hope for life in a sin-deadened world, of the light of Christ shining in the darkness.
I implied nothing of the kind. I said that you are damning the tree. Precisely!!! Again, we agree!
valient_Lucy:
Z
Zooey
Guest
:yup:Go right ahead &:yup: speak for me; you are
taking the words right out of my mouth!!Let me quote the *Catechism: “*Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc.”
I submit that nobody who puts up a Christmas tree attributes to it ANYTHING divine.
You say it is a symbol of greed. Good for you. We who enjoy this simple custom say it is a symbol of the everlasting life of Christ, of hope for life in a sin-deadened world, of the light of Christ shining in the darkness.
I implied nothing of the kind. I said that you are damning the tree. Precisely!!! Again, we agree!
valient_Lucy:
So sad…so true. The tree was never the problem…
T
tabcom
Guest
**After 3200 unique views and 50 different posters, you are the first to eloquently refute my claim. Thank you for providing the catechism on idolatry. And thank you for describing what the tree represents to you and those that support your statement.
**
Once again, the eloquence is breath taking…well done!
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