Is the Church doing enough for the poor?

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

The quote you mentioned about the poor always being there came when someone propose, Judas I believe, that money is best given to the poor. Judas,being a thief and ultimately conspirator of Jesus’ death, really didn’t mean it to go to the poor but Jesus still answered him and said while He was on Earth, our priority should be in Him, Christ, followed then by the poor. Read through the New Testament only and see how many times Jesus or Paul praises money or the rich. If your lucky you’’ find one. And that one was when the rich man was asked by Jesus to give up all his wealth and follow Him, the rich man couldn’t and walked away down trodden. Jesus did *look at him with love *though.

Another interesting consideration to consider is the absence of any directives in the New Testament directing the Church, established by Christ, to do anything for the poor.
Near as I can find would be Christ’s statement to Peter: “Feed my sheep.” Now would that be understood literally or spiritually?
Jesus taught that WE should help the poor. I don’t see how the Church is involved at all.

While it is true that there is little praise for the rich in the NT, remember it was (rich) wise men who brought gifts that probably sustained the Holy Family for years and could have supported Jesus in his public life. There was also the tax collector and the Centurion, both well to do. Jesus stayed at the homes of the rich (by the standards of those days) and even depended on a rich man for His tomb.

I think the rich deserve more positive recognition. For salvation, the poor are not required to do anything…but the rich have to push that darn camel through the eye of a needle.

Not easy and the camel doesn’t like it one bit.

 

[Tigg]

The quote you mentioned about the poor always being there came when someone propose, Judas I believe, that money is best given to the poor. Judas,being a thief and ultimately conspirator of Jesus’ death, really didn’t mean it to go to the poor but Jesus still answered him and said while He was on Earth, our priority should be in Him, Christ, followed then by the poor. Read through the New Testament only and see how many times Jesus or Paul praises money or the rich. If your lucky you’’ find one. And that one was when the rich man was asked by Jesus to give up all his wealth and follow Him, the rich man couldn’t and walked away down trodden. Jesus did *look at him with love *though.

And it is still sin to take that which is rightfully theirs from the rich and give it to the poor and it is still sin to be covetous toward the possessions of the rich. Likewise if something is confiscated from you and you are coerced into giving it up, there is no Christian virtue in that. How has society gotten to the point where it believes inequality in and of itself is sinful (the rich vs the poor?) How have we gotten to the point where we condemn our neighbor because he drives a BMW and call it “obvious excess?” Read Pope Leo’s earlier encyclicals and you will see his explanation of that scripture that the poor will always be with us. He writes how there will always be inequality on this earth due to the fact that we are different in talent, intelligence and ability. Man is equal in* nature,* as all are made in His image, but there is not and cannot be equality in material possessions. It is the thinking of the Democratic Socialists to tout a Utopia upon earth which cannot happen here because of our fallen sinful nature, but will happen in heaven. It is a false tenet.

**HERE **are Pope Leo’s words:

“From the Gospel records, equality among men consists in this, that one and all, possessing the same nature, are called to the sublime dignity of being sons of God; and, moreover, that one and the same end being set before all, each and every one has to be judged according to the same laws.”

He condemns socialist ideology by saying “that [the socialists] believe they may with impunity seize upon the possessions and usurp the rights of the wealthy.”

“**More wisely and profitably the Church recognizes the existence of inequality among men, who are by nature unlike in mental endowment and strength of body, and even in amount of fortune.” **Therefore she enjoins that “the right of property and of its disposal, derived from nature, should in the case of every individual remain intact and inviolate.”

Are we to help the poor and make certain they have the essential things to live? Absolutely, or we cannot gain heaven, but this does not include smart phones, EBT debit cards which, btw, in our state allows the “needy” to purchase recreational marijuana, cigarettes and other frivolity they happen to deem necessary to survive and that the State is allowing in its welfare benefits.

 

[bisco]

are you saying that taxes are sinful? render unto caesar what is caesars.

 

[WilT]

And it is still sin to take that which is rightfully theirs from the rich and give it to the poor and it is still sin to be covetous toward the possessions of the rich.

tigg, you seek rewards of the World to satisfy you. You may end up like the rich man that allowed the poor man to hunger and die. The rich man went to Hell and the poor man was cared for by Abraham in the Heavenly Kingdom. If one attain any wealth by exploitation or by financially stealing it ,white collar style then ,beware because God sees all, they will get there just reward. And it will most likely be in Hell.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

are you saying that taxes are sinful? render unto caesar what is caesars.

When a government uses force to take from one and give to another…that is theft.

I think there is a Commandment against that.

 

[bisco]

agreed, but what force are we talking about. i was talking about taxation, what are you talking about?

 

[bisco]

i could quote pope francis, but i think all well informed catholics know his feelings regarding the poor.

 

[Abu]

WilT #40
It is no coincidence that we Today have a Pope campaigning for equality, fairness, and justice.

It is strange that the inference here is that St John XXIII, St John Paul II and Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI did little, if anything, for equality, fairness and justice – their pontificates greatly enabled the reduction in poverty worldwide.

#63
My bet is poverty is most likely due to corruption and abuse in governments systems that keeps the poor down and aligns itself with the wealthy.

Betting is totally opposed to reality particularly in such important issues. Poverty has many causes – the individual; the absence or lack of sound formation in the value of work; a lack of support for the basics of free enterprise in the State; a lack of support organizations for those who really need help; a lack of support from the society or government for those organizations that understand and help those who cannot help themselves.

It is precisely because of the great understanding and effort of the Catholic monks in the ninth century, and the development of free enterprise through the magnificent work of the Catholic Late Scholastics from the sixteenth century with the development of the economic laws of cause and effect based on faith and reason which enabled the enrichment of untold millions from the poverty that existed before the enterprises that came with the “Industrial Revolution”. As with any new developments, unfortunately laws can be slow to follow, especially where reason and faith are confused or lacking.

Wealth can be distributed only after it is produced. The great reduction in worldwide poverty from this most Catholic of endeavors – free enterprise – shows how virtuous application to help others to help themselves bears good fruit

 

[WilT]

It is strange that the inference here is that St John XXIII, St John Paul II and Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI did little, if anything, for equality, fairness and justice – their pontificates greatly enabled the reduction in poverty worldwide.
Betting is totally opposed to reality particularly in such important issues. Poverty has many causes – the individual; the absence or lack of sound formation in the value of work; a lack of support for the basics of free enterprise in the State; a lack of support organizations for those who really need help; a lack of support from the society or government for those organizations that understand and help those who cannot help themselves.

It is precisely because of the great understanding and effort of the Catholic monks in the ninth century, and the development of free enterprise through the magnificent work of the Catholic Late Scholastics from the sixteenth century with the development of the economic laws of cause and effect based on faith and reason which enabled the enrichment of untold millions from the poverty that existed before the enterprises that came with the “Industrial Revolution”. As with any new developments, unfortunately laws can be slow to follow, especially where reason and faith are confused or lacking.

Wealth can be distributed only after it is produced. The great reduction in worldwide poverty from this most Catholic of endeavors – free enterprise – shows how virtuous application to help others to help themselves bears good fruit

Yes, there are many reasons to the cause of poverty but it could take forever to write them All down. You took my quote slightly out of context. The cause of poverty is simply lack of Charity in the world by most individual persons.

 

[Abu]

WilT #149
The cause of poverty is simply lack of Charity in the world by most individual persons.

Undoubtedly not. St Paul himself saw this important fact as he mandated at the dawn of Catholicism: “If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat.” (See 2 Thess 3:6-15).

Further the great reduction in poverty already achieved throughout the world due to free enterprise has emphatically demonstrated the need for more efforts to inculcate those Catholic values, and as the eminent Fr James V Schall, S.J., points out, this is how poverty in the world is alleviated:
“Since the Church wants poverty confronted, since She wants this confrontation to be done justly and with the interest and cooperation of the workers and the poor, She has had to acknowledge, as did the socialist systems themselves, that there are certain ways that must be employed if mankind is to meet its economic problems. These ways can be known and imitated, but they must include a juridical system, profit, enterprise, knowledge, exchange, a market, voluntary organisations, a relatively independent economy, private property, and respect for work and excellence.” (Fr James V Schall, S.J., in *Does Catholicism Still Exist?, *Alba House 1994, p 184-185).

 

[Tigg]

Tigg;12244367:

And it is still sin

to take that which is rightfully theirs from the rich and give it to the poor and it is still sin to be covetous toward the possessions of the rich.

**tigg, you seek rewards of the World to satisfy you. ** You may end up like the rich man that allowed the poor man to hunger and die. The rich man went to Hell and the poor man was cared for by Abraham in the Heavenly Kingdom. If one attain any wealth by exploitation or by financially stealing it ,white collar style then ,beware because God sees all, they will get there just reward. And it will most likely be in Hell.

Wow, that you got that from my post which was predominantly affirming a pope’s teaching on equality is amazing! And that you would judge someone, whom you don’t know, even more so!

 

[Tigg]

tigg, you seek rewards of the World to satisfy you. You may end up like the rich man that allowed the poor man to hunger and die. The rich man went to Hell and the poor man was cared for by Abraham in the Heavenly Kingdom. If one attain any wealth by exploitation or by financially stealing it ,white collar style then ,beware because God sees all, they will get there just reward. And it will most likely be in Hell.

Wow! That you judge me, whom you do not even know, from a post that was predominantly affirming a pope’s teaching on equality is amazing!

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

agreed, but what force are we talking about. i was talking about taxation, what are you talking about?

The “force” is the power of the government to put you in jail for not paying taxes.

I am talking about Taxation, Bisco, taxation…

 

[bisco]

the church is against taxation? what happened to ‘render unto caesar what is caesars’? and render unto God what is God’s.

 

[bisco]

Another interesting consideration to consider is the absence of any directives in the New Testament directing the Church, established by Christ, to do anything for the poor.
Near as I can find would be Christ’s statement to Peter: “Feed my sheep.” Now would that be understood literally or spiritually?
Jesus taught that WE should help the poor. I don’t see how the Church is involved at all.

While it is true that there is little praise for the rich in the NT, remember it was (rich) wise men who brought gifts that probably sustained the Holy Family for years and could have supported Jesus in his public life. There was also the tax collector and the Centurion, both well to do. Jesus stayed at the homes of the rich (by the standards of those days) and even depended on a rich man for His tomb.

I think the rich deserve more positive recognition. For salvation, the poor are not required to do anything…but the rich have to push that darn camel through the eye of a needle.

Not easy and the camel doesn’t like it one bit.

i think in acts, the apostles establish a team to care for the needs of widows.

 

[WilT]

Wow! That you judge me, whom you do not even know, from a post that was predominantly affirming a pope’s teaching on equality is amazing!

It wasn’t about the popes saying or teaching I wrote about Tigg.

 

[WilT]

Tiggs, it’s more your underlying disdain for the poor. It comes out in your words.

 

[bisco]

we had a wonderful lady helping in our rcia class. she was very wealthy and very outwardly devout. she lived in a beautiful house in a very expensive neighborhood, and enjoyed traveling the world in her spare time. her idea of helping the poor was to give her starbucks points to the checkout workers at the supermarket and that type of thing.

 

[djames99]

I have been working with and alongside the poor and the homeless and I have found that the Church is doing very little to not only care for them but to promote independence. The other day I read that the Bishops of the U.S. were having a convention at this plush 4 to 5 star waterfront hotel while the homeless in the area were struggling to find there next meal. Even though the Catholic Church has been a leader in protecting and caring for the poor, our Bishops have lost focus on ‘The Lost Sheep’ and prefer siding with the upper class and the powerful seeking comfort and laxness to service and humility. If I were to grade them today I would give them a D+. The tepid/luke warm I will vomit them from my mouth sayith the Lord.

The Church, the main body is always working through it’s members. The evidence is all around us.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

the church is against taxation? what happened to ‘render unto caesar what is caesars’? and render unto God what is God’s.

I don’t think the Church is against taxation…but it should be against “forced” taxation.

“Render”. as in render unto Caesar. …means “Give”

Perhaps Caesar should take a lesson from the Catholic Church and not force people to pay taxes. The Church has done quite well for centuries on voluntary contributions.