Is the Church guilty of promoting forgeries?

[vsedriver]

OK, got into it with an odd person. Anyway, I’ve never heard of these accusations. Usually I can find good scholarly evidence to debunk this stuff but I’m a bit stumped on these. Any help would be appreciated. I think it maybe a case of some truth and a lot of lie but I need help separating what is what.

The Caps are not mine so please excuse!

IT FORGED THE LETTER TO KING PEPIN FROM ST. PETER IN HEAVEN -755 A.D.

IT SOLD- AS AUTHENTIC- THOUSANDS OF “HOLY FORESKINS” OF THE BABY JESUS ALL OVER EUROPE.

IT FORGED THE “DONATIONS OF CONSTANTINE” IN 750 A.D. WHICH WERE EXPOSED AS FRAUDS IN 1440 A.D. BY LORENZO VALLA AND FINALLY ADMITTED TO BY ROME.

T FORGED THE PSEUDO-ISIDORIAN DECRETALS WHICH WERE EXPOSED BY JOSEPH VON DOLLINGER IN 845 A.D.

IT FORGED “THE APOSTLES CREED” WHICH WERE MANUFACTURED SOMETIME IN THE 7TH CENTURY—LONG AFTER THE APOSTLES TIME……AND EXPOSED BY JOSEPH BERINGTON IN 1687.

IT FORGED THE “ATHENASIAN CREED” WHICH WAS SO POORLY FABRICATED THAT IN 471 THE PATRIARCH OF CONSTANTINOPLE CALLED IT THE “WORK OF A DRUNKEN MAN”

IT FORGED THE LETTER FROM POPE CLEMENT TO THE APOSTLE JAMES, THE LETTER BEING FORGED AROUND 325 A.D. LONG AFTER ROME PRETENDED IT WAS WRITTEN.

IT PRODUCED “GRATIANS DECRETUM” AS THE BASIS FOR CANON LAW–THAT INCORPPERATED SOME 324 QUOTES FROM POPES, WITH 313 OF THOSE QUOTES BEING FORGERIES.

IT FORGED THE “BOOK OF POPES” THAT CLAIMED 13 POPES WHO NEVER EXISTED. THIS WAS EXPOSED BY CATHOLIC FATHER HIPPOLYTE DELAHAYE…THIS FORGERY ALONE CLOSES THE ISSUE ON “APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION”

 

[jilly4ski]

Of course the obvious question is, what proof is there, that these things actually happened. When I googled the first “claim” the most prominent results were websites with “666” and “the anti-christ” in their domain names. (ie conspiracy websites).

I did find a wikipedia article that hit on my search, surprise surprise, it is titled "Patrimonium Sancti Petri (Patrimony of Saint Peter), in it, it discusses how the pope sent a secret letter to Pepin and enlisted his help to expel the Lombards from Rome and the surrounding area. It would not be beyond Anti-Catholics to misinterpret not only Latin but the meaning of the Pope’s titles. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrimonium_Sancti_Petri

I really don’t think any of the claims need to be taken seriously. If in doubt, ask who is “they” or “it,” chances are there ignorance of the Church’s structure will lead one to discredit any and all claims made.

 

[Church_Militant]

I figured out where your man got all this propaganda.

Joseph Wheless - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

OK, got into it with an odd person. Anyway, I’ve never heard of these accusations. Usually I can find good scholarly evidence to debunk this stuff but I’m a bit stumped on these. Any help would be appreciated. I think it maybe a case of some truth and a lot of lie but I need help separating what is what.

The Caps are not mine so please excuse!

IT FORGED THE LETTER TO KING PEPIN FROM ST. PETER IN HEAVEN -755 A.D.

Always make such accusers site their sources. They will find that they cannot provide anything authentic…even as we will.
homepages.rpi.edu/~holmes/Hobbies/Genealogy2/ps03/ps03_449.htm

IT SOLD- AS AUTHENTIC- THOUSANDS OF “HOLY FORESKINS” OF THE BABY JESUS ALL OVER EUROPE.

Where’d he get the “thousands” I don’t see it, and again, the church dealt with this foolishness. Some people may have propagated a number of hoaxes, but it sure as vitam aeternam wasn’t as alleged by your opponent. See Holy Prepuce

IT FORGED THE “DONATIONS OF CONSTANTINE” IN 750 A.D. WHICH WERE EXPOSED AS FRAUDS IN 1440 A.D. BY LORENZO VALLA AND FINALLY ADMITTED TO BY ROME.

Just gotta get the facts. Donation of Constantine and Is the pope addressed as “Vicar of the Son of God” in the Donation of Constantine?

T FORGED THE PSEUDO-ISIDORIAN DECRETALS WHICH WERE EXPOSED BY JOSEPH VON DOLLINGER IN 845 A.D.

Lots of information on this…　

IT FORGED “THE APOSTLES CREED” WHICH WERE MANUFACTURED SOMETIME IN THE 7TH CENTURY—LONG AFTER THE APOSTLES TIME……AND EXPOSED BY JOSEPH BERINGTON IN 1687.

Have a look at Apostles’ Creed

IT FORGED THE “ATHENASIAN CREED” WHICH WAS SO POORLY FABRICATED THAT IN 471 THE PATRIARCH OF CONSTANTINOPLE CALLED IT THE “WORK OF A DRUNKEN MAN”

So it was badly composed…why is that proof? A creed can be badly composed for many reasons, but that would not invalidate its tenets, so matter how poorly written it was.

However, the Nicene Creed…which is linked to it is one of the most eloquent professions of the Christians faith ever written…but it certainly wasn’t “forged”.

IT FORGED THE LETTER FROM POPE CLEMENT TO THE APOSTLE JAMES, THE LETTER BEING FORGED AROUND 325 A.D. LONG AFTER ROME PRETENDED IT WAS WRITTEN.

Read it here. Epistle of Clement to James

IT PRODUCED “GRATIANS DECRETUM” AS THE BASIS FOR CANON LAW–THAT INCORPPERATED SOME 324 QUOTES FROM POPES, WITH 313 OF THOSE QUOTES BEING FORGERIES.

Information/facts

IT FORGED THE “BOOK OF POPES” THAT CLAIMED 13 POPES WHO NEVER EXISTED. THIS WAS EXPOSED BY CATHOLIC FATHER HIPPOLYTE DELAHAYE…THIS FORGERY ALONE CLOSES THE ISSUE ON “APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION”

Liber Pontificalis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Book of the Popes (Liber Pontificalis …

 

[Rohzek]

OK, got into it with an odd person. Anyway, I’ve never heard of these accusations. Usually I can find good scholarly evidence to debunk this stuff but I’m a bit stumped on these. Any help would be appreciated. I think it maybe a case of some truth and a lot of lie but I need help separating what is what.

The Caps are not mine so please excuse!

IT FORGED THE LETTER TO KING PEPIN FROM ST. PETER IN HEAVEN -755 A.D.

IT SOLD- AS AUTHENTIC- THOUSANDS OF “HOLY FORESKINS” OF THE BABY JESUS ALL OVER EUROPE.

IT FORGED THE “DONATIONS OF CONSTANTINE” IN 750 A.D. WHICH WERE EXPOSED AS FRAUDS IN 1440 A.D. BY LORENZO VALLA AND FINALLY ADMITTED TO BY ROME.

T FORGED THE PSEUDO-ISIDORIAN DECRETALS WHICH WERE EXPOSED BY JOSEPH VON DOLLINGER IN 845 A.D.

IT FORGED “THE APOSTLES CREED” WHICH WERE MANUFACTURED SOMETIME IN THE 7TH CENTURY—LONG AFTER THE APOSTLES TIME……AND EXPOSED BY JOSEPH BERINGTON IN 1687.

IT FORGED THE “ATHENASIAN CREED” WHICH WAS SO POORLY FABRICATED THAT IN 471 THE PATRIARCH OF CONSTANTINOPLE CALLED IT THE “WORK OF A DRUNKEN MAN”

IT FORGED THE LETTER FROM POPE CLEMENT TO THE APOSTLE JAMES, THE LETTER BEING FORGED AROUND 325 A.D. LONG AFTER ROME PRETENDED IT WAS WRITTEN.

IT PRODUCED “GRATIANS DECRETUM” AS THE BASIS FOR CANON LAW–THAT INCORPPERATED SOME 324 QUOTES FROM POPES, WITH 313 OF THOSE QUOTES BEING FORGERIES.

IT FORGED THE “BOOK OF POPES” THAT CLAIMED 13 POPES WHO NEVER EXISTED. THIS WAS EXPOSED BY CATHOLIC FATHER HIPPOLYTE DELAHAYE…THIS FORGERY ALONE CLOSES THE ISSUE ON “APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION”

A decent article that discusses the pseudo-Isidorian decrentials is the following: Gallagher, Clarence. “Diversity in Unity: Approaches to Church Order in Rome and Byzantium.” Ecclesiastical Law Journal: The Journal of the Ecclesiastical Law Society 6, no. 30 (2002): 208-238. The author I think tries to downplay their impact too much though. It’s a bit debatable how much of an impact these had. Lemme know if you wanna look at other articles and whatnot that discuss them. The decrentials were undoubtedly forged though.

The Donation of Constantine is the most famous case. I don’t think anyone could deny that the papacy used that to its advantage although it was a blatant forgery.

I’m not aware of the Athanasian creed being forged. But I am aware that the Latin West used pseudo-Athanasian materials to support their filioque arguments during the ninth century.

And Gratian’s decretium has a very complicated history. If I remember correctly there is a big book coming out on it soon. I’d have to check.

 

[Rohzek]

The Catholic Encyclopedia stuff is good, but dated (its from 1912). There are some good recent articles on some of the stuff you posted about. A good article, written by a Catholic I believe, concerning the pseudo-Isidorean decretals is the following:

Gallagher, Clarence. “Diversity in Unity: Approaches to Church Order in Rome and Byzantium.” Ecclesiastical Law Journal: The Journal of the Ecclesiastical Law Society 6, no. 30 (2002): 208-238.

There is also another that details how these decretals were used by Pope Nicholas I:

Herrin, Judith. “The Pentarchy: Theory and Reality in the Ninth Century.” In Cristianità d’Occidente e cristianità d’Oriente (secoli VI-XI) : 24-30 aprile 2003. Spoleto, Italy: Settimane di studio della Fondazione Centro italiano di studi sull’Alto Medioevo, 2004. 591-628.

For Gratian’s Decretum, I suggest the following book:

Winroth, Anders. *The Making of Gratian’s Decretum.*New York: Cambridge University Press, 2000.

 

[vsedriver]

I figured out where your man got all this propaganda.

Wow! thanks for all this. It may take me some time to go through it all. I suspected it was a tiny bit of truth with a lot of trash.

 

[Church_Militant]

Wow! thanks for all this. It may take me some time to go through it all. I suspected it was a tiny bit of truth with a lot of trash.

Yep…that’s the nature of deception and propaganda. A tiny bit of truth wrapped in distortion, lies, and specious polemical rhetoric.