Is The Church headed for Schism?

[Kathryn_Ann]

With all of the news out in the last several months : the health mandate; to the document on LCWR ; to The Pope reigning in dissident Austrians; to The Pope admonishing US Bishops to follow the Vatican on Teaching ; and given the loud push back from the modernist side, i cannot help but wonder if the Church in the Western countries is not heading for a Schism. Much like Luther and Calvin, those who wish to change Theology are fighting very hard to draw a line in the sand. The saber rattling from the liberal publications, the Catholic Universities that are defiant to Church Authority, and even some Bishops and Priests becoming hostile to the attempts of The Holy Father to right the ship. Not to mention the pilling on by the secular media and hedonists in the public sector. I feel Catholics are quickly coming to a point where we will have to choose sides. This will get messy. Thoughts anyone?

:angel1::heaven:
Words of Christ re: The Church::angel1:
“And the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.”:heaven::harp::grouphug:

 

[3DOCTORS]

You’re correct, Kathryn Ann, but I certainly have felt oppressive spiritual clouds gathering, so to speak, with regards to the things that the OP describes. We need to pray for the situations in the world and for each other so that we don’t grow discouraged in our individual lives as this battle rages around us. God bless!

 

[Dirt]

My opinion is that the Church is doing just fine. Sure, there are some struggles between the local bishops and the Holy Father, but almost all of these are cordial and minor. I think the first post is a **great exaggeration **of the state of the Church, focusing only on the areas that make the papers and ignore the vast majority of Catholics to who this is meaningless. Look into your diocesan paper. Does it look like a state of crisis or just the Church going about its mission?

My Diocesan paper rarely tackles anything of substance. If one were to look only at the Diocesan paper one would be completely ignorant of any of the troubles facing the Faithful save the HHS mandate.
As to your assessment of a “great exaggeration”, in my post, i charitably disagree. While i will acknowledge that the dissidents get the most press time, i would also point out that the issues in Austria, Germany, Ireland, England, the US and elsewhere lead one to surmise that there is in fact a struggle ongoing within the Church as to which path we will follow. Add to this the blatant disregard of Doctrine from the once Catholic universities one might surmise that we are witnessing a “hearts and minds” campaign being waged by those who would re-write what it means to be Catholic.

 

[pnewton]

My Diocesan paper rarely tackles anything of substance. If one were to look only at the Diocesan paper one would be completely ignorant of any of the troubles facing the Faithful save the HHS mandate.

My paper doesn’t deal with it either, but because this problem doesn’t exist here (Texas). The HHS mandate was mentioned, but I scarcely see that to be a divisive issue. The bishops have been rather unanimous in their response. For sure, other areas of disagreement exist, but those are just areas of diologue.

If you are thinking this is such an issue, can you show where the USCCB or even a single bishops agrees that we may be headed for a schism? They would have to, you know, as they are the shephards.

 

[KateKimmer]

the church is NOT doing fine. Every church seems to have its own theme now.
So and So parish is liberal, so and so parish is conservative.

There needs to be UNITY among the catholic churches.

 

[ImKevin]

God bless Pope Benedict XVI!!!

 

[Irishgal49]

I choose Jesus.

The rest of it is just history repeating itself.

“Pray, hope and don’t worry.” * ~ Padre Pio*

“You are Peter and on this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell will NOT prevail against it.”

 

[pnewton]

the church is NOT doing fine. Every church seems to have its own theme now.
So and So parish is liberal, so and so parish is conservative.

There needs to be UNITY among the catholic churches.

Differences do not imply disunity.

Now the body is not a single part, but many. If a foot should say, “Because I am not a hand I do not belong to the body,” it does not for this reason belong any less to the body. Or if an ear should say, “Because I am not an eye I do not belong to the body,” it does not for this reason belong any less to the body.

People are different. Parishes must be different.

 

[Julia_Mae]

:angel1::heaven:
Words of Christ re: The Church::angel1:
“And the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.”:heaven::harp::grouphug:

Which doesn’t guarantee a cataclysmic volcanic eruption cannot take out the entire Vatican during a Papal Conclave.

 

[Julia_Mae]

As to your assessment of a “great exaggeration”, in my post, i charitably disagree. While i will acknowledge that the dissidents get the most press time, i would also point out that the issues in Austria, Germany, Ireland, England, the US and elsewhere lead one to surmise that there is in fact a struggle ongoing within the Church as to which path we will follow. Add to this the blatant disregard of Doctrine from the once Catholic universities one might surmise that we are witnessing a “hearts and minds” campaign being waged by those who would re-write what it means to be Catholic.

The only constant is change.

Father Barron has a great talk on Youtube, I should try and post the link later, where he speaks about Scripture interpretation. One of the things he talks about is how the Church Fathers didn’t take the Bible literally, they understood the figurative nature of much of the writing. Then after the Dark Ages, I guess, we start getting the very literal Church interpretation. Then in the last couple hundred years, the figurative nature comes into play again.

What is the true Dogma of the Universal Christian Church? That is the constant Deposit of Faith. Everything else is subject to change.

But, I think it’s also true that people are anticipating a new Pope in the next couple years and there is some maneuvering going on (i.e. “Vatileaks”) at levels we are not privy to and the tensions are filtering down and your points are valid. You know, I believe the Internet pretty much is responsible for a lot of the actual and perceived tensions. Catholics in large groups across the world never before exchanged information or had access to it.

It’ll be an interesting next hundred years.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

You’re correct, Kathryn Ann, but I certainly have felt oppressive spiritual clouds gathering, so to speak, with regards to the things that the OP describes. We need to pray for the situations in the world and for each other so that we don’t grow discouraged in our individual lives as this battle rages around us. God bless!

Bless you, 3DOCTORS! :curtsey: I too see all manner of things in the news each day and pray and work for resolutions. :angel1:

Many problems seem to have to do with people failing to give proper obedience:bowdown: to The Holy Father, the CCC and the Magisterium. I know all who love the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church are praying for the strength to reason together.

In reading about the critical times in which St. Catherine of Sienna :nun1:lived, there is a real lesson in Catholic devotion and work towards unity, but without compromising Church tenets. So, I admire people who work for peace within and without the Church, and stand up for Her teachings.

I think these are times when we truly need that childlike faith in Our Heavenly Father to keep us from focusing on human frailties, and instead learn how great our God is.

One thing I love is the Church’s steadfastness on the dignity of all human life. Those that fail to honor this rule will not have God’s blessing. Proponents of abortion “rights”, heresies, dis-obedience, sin, none of these shall prevail, but shall fall away. They may seem to win the day for a brief time, but we have the words of Jesus to remind us which side wins in the end: The Church Triumphant, founded by Christ Himself!

I always enjoy your posts, 3DOCTORS! Many blessings to you!
Kathryn Ann:harp:

 

[mlz]

Perhaps the “refiners fire” mentioned in scripture is happening here. I do think something is “brewing” and although it “looks” like it’s political in a sense it’s really spiritual. A great battle is going on. This is a time we must all be praying more and more. Stand firm in the strong Catholic faith that many are falling away from. Yes His Church will prevail, absolutely, but sometimes under “fire”.

Praying much,
mlz

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Which doesn’t guarantee a cataclysmic volcanic eruption cannot take out the entire Vatican during a Papal Conclave.

:getholy:And were that to happen, God would provide as always!:angel1: Priests, laypersons, brothers:knight1: and sisters:nun1: religious from all corners of the world would gather to help one another. God always prevails. “See how they love one another,” is our creed. God is love, and love never faileth!:heaven::angel1:

 

[Julia_Mae]

:getholy:And were that to happen, God would provide as always!:angel1: Priests, laypersons, brothers:knight1: and sisters:nun1: religious from all corners of the world would gather to help one another. God always prevails. “See how they love one another,” is our creed. God is love, and love never faileth!:heaven::angel1:

I agree. And, of course, we have all the other branches of the Universal Church to help out.

 

[livingwordunity]

With all of the news out in the last several months : the health mandate; to the document on LCWR ; to The Pope reigning in dissident Austrians; to The Pope admonishing US Bishops to follow the Vatican on Teaching ; and given the loud push back from the modernist side, i cannot help but wonder if the Church in the Western countries is not heading for a Schism. Much like Luther and Calvin, those who wish to change Theology are fighting very hard to draw a line in the sand. The saber rattling from the liberal publications, the Catholic Universities that are defiant to Church Authority, and even some Bishops and Priests becoming hostile to the attempts of The Holy Father to right the ship. Not to mention the pilling on by the secular media and hedonists in the public sector. I feel Catholics are quickly coming to a point where we will have to choose sides. This will get messy. Thoughts anyone?

The Church is divided between the sheep and the goats.

 

[lynnvinc]

Only problem is who will be left standing with the Holy Father in such a supposed schism? The ones who are against abortion, divorce, sex outside of Holy Matrimony, artificial contraception, harming people & God’s creation through environmental harms such as global warming, etc., and favor helping the poor and oppressed, and working against structures of steep inequality (helping with the more widespread sharing of God’s abundance), etc. Firm believers in God, the Trinity, the Eucharist, the communion of saints; close followers of Jesus and his teachings…

We really shouldn’t have any trouble following ALL of these, but it seems to me that most people on both sides of this imagined schism fall short in one area or the other. For instance, I’ve been trying to appeal to Catholics who seem good in many ways (against abortion & contraception, etc, and don’t need improvement in those area), but who deny what the scientists have to say about anthropogenic global warming and our part in it (preferring to impugn the scientists’ reputations … like killing the messengers), and refuse to follow what JPII and BXVI have being saying since 1990 we must do regarding it.

Would those types be dominating the faction they suppose to be with the Church & Holy Father? If so, then what is happening is not so much a schism but a serious multi-fracturing of the Church, with most pieces being in error in some way or other.

Maybe a good solution is for sincere Catholics to just stick to that small piece that is in line with what the Holy Father and Church are saying and teaching – the entirety of it. That seems the safest route, rather than siding with one big side or other of a schism that supposedly represents the entirety of the Church’s teachings, but in fact does not, and refuses to look at their own wrongfulness and need for improvement and rectification.

 

[3DOCTORS]

Bless you, 3DOCTORS! I too see all manner of things in the news each day and pray and work for resolutions.

Many problems seem to have to do with people failing to give proper obedience to The Holy Father, the CCC and the Magisterium. I know all who love the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church are praying for the strength to reason together.

In reading about the critical times in which St. Catherine of Sienna lived, there is a real lesson in Catholic devotion and work towards unity, but without compromising Church tenets. So, I admire people who work for peace within and without the Church, and stand up for Her teachings.

I think these are times when we truly need that childlike faith in Our Heavenly Father to keep us from focusing on human frailties, and instead learn how great our God is.

One thing I love is the Church’s steadfastness on the dignity of all human life. Those that fail to honor this rule will not have God’s blessing. Proponents of abortion “rights”, heresies, dis-obedience, sin, none of these shall prevail, but shall fall away. They may seem to win the day for a brief time, but we have the words of Jesus to remind us which side wins in the end: The Church Triumphant, founded by Christ Himself!

I always enjoy your posts, 3DOCTORS! Many blessings to you!
Kathryn Ann:harp:

Thanks, Kathryn, and bless you too! Sorry I had to remove some of your smilies from the quote in order to post this!

Reading back through all posts since last time I was on this thread, I wonder about “schism” - there’s plenty of heresy floating around, but would it cause actual breakaway religious denominations to form?

I kind of doubt it, due to the attitudes I’ve seen displayed by, just to use one example, the “WomanPriests” and their ilk. They don’t want to leave and go down the street to be ordained in the Episcopalian or some other church. Instead, they consider it their sacred duty to somehow “liberate” the Catholic Church they claim to love from its shackles of “patriarchy” that “oppress” women and gays and so forth.

Whether others in the Church even want them to! They think everybody will follow them. But not everybody will. This could lead to a division if the Church was more like it was in past centuries, willing to make public declarations of excommunications which the most egregious offenders have already incurred by default (insert that Latin term that I can’t spell off the top off my head here - laetae sententiae or something close). And no one has been declared anathema for centuries, have they? Boy, would the media be all over something like that like a bad rash!

 

[pnewton]

And no one has been declared anathema for centuries, have they? Boy, would the media be all over something like that like a bad rash!

FYI - The penalty of anathema is no longer a part of canon law.

 

[Dirt]

FYI - The penalty of anathema is no longer a part of canon law.

Should be!

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_19070908_pascendi-dominici-gregis_en.html

 

[3DOCTORS]

FYI - The penalty of anathema is no longer a part of canon law.

Oops - I sit at my computer corrected.

Even an excommunication that was publicly known would probably trigger off a firestorm of anti-Catholic media hoopla.