Is the Church too monarchical?

[KP3243]

I don’t think so, if you put into the context that we are talking about the Kingdom of God. The Church developed the idea of a democratic republic years before the Enlightenment by Cardinal Bellermine who is a Doctor of the Church mainly because there was enough historical evidence that man abuses his power pretty consistently and they had to figure out what would work best for humanity so everyone received equal protection and equal rights under the law and that no one person or group controlled the whole state and the decisions of the state. Bellermine eliminated the notion of divine rights and he said all men are equal, Jefferson a 130 years later almost verbatim wrote that all men are created equal.

 

[smichhertz]

Hey all,

A few thoughts:

We have one King and that is Christ. The Pope is a Vicar of Christ, but not the King himself.

Remember, that although the Church Militant, Suffering and Triumphant all exist, it’s still all one Church with one King.

Getting more practical, I don’t think the Church is too monarchical, but I do agree that a sort of monarchy exists in the political structure of the Church such that the Pope ultimately calls the shots. However, the Pope doesn’t call ALL the shots. The Pope can’t change Church teaching in a contradictory way, or go against Christ. So it’s not like the Pope holds unlimited authority or power.

Hope that helps!

 

[Joe_5859]

Hey all,

A few thoughts:

We have one King and that is Christ. The Pope is a Vicar of Christ, but not the King himself.

Remember, that although the Church Militant, Suffering and Triumphant all exist, it’s still all one Church with one King.

Getting more practical, I don’t think the Church is too monarchical, but I do agree that a sort of monarchy exists in the political structure of the Church such that the Pope ultimately calls the shots. However, the Pope doesn’t call ALL the shots. The Pope can’t change Church teaching in a contradictory way, or go against Christ. So it’s not like the Pope holds unlimited authority or power.

Hope that helps!

That’s a good point. The Pope and bishops (and all priests and even the laity) participate to some extent in the Kingly office of Christ. But He is the King.

 

[DavidFilmer]

The Church has always been a Church. The only reason that the Church center resides in a City-state is that if it were part of say "Italy’s’ rule…

Yeah, I am aware of that. But, if the Vatican were not ALSO a sovereign nation then it would not have its leadership categorized among other leadership models in (for example) the CIA World Factbook.

I was agreeing that the Pope is a monarch, and citing this as supporting evidence. Some people want to claim that the Pope is NOT a monarch, because they have a negative impression of monarchies. But he clearly is, and the whole world agrees.

 

[cguerber]

Matthew 23:11-12 (NIV for convenience)

11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Either way, both your quote and mine prove how humble the Pope is, since “the humble will be exalted”.

Bet ya didn’t see dat coming, huh?

Ha! That just proves my point. " the humble will be exalted". The papacy is such a contriditcion to that.

 

[TimothyH]

I don’t know how much more they said, since the only article I found was quoting them directly. If you like, I can give you the link to that story, although it’s in German and doesn’t say anything else than what I have already translated.

Thanks for the reply. My German from high school is not going to help me read it, I’m sure.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

Seems Vatican 2 didn’t clarify much of anything judging from the number of church closings, former Catholics, dissident bishops, priests, nuns, etc. funny business going on in Masses, and so on in the past 40 years. Not to mention Catholics who could support a goofy President like Obama, not once but twice? Lord have mercy! Christ have mercy! Lord have mercy!

An outside observer would conclude that sin entered the world and Adam and Eve were thrown out of the garden of Eden on August 15, 1965 the way people go on and on about Vatican II.

The fact that Asia Minor used to be the center of Christianity but is now almost totally Islamic is overlooked. Popes who sold the papacy, had children and even committed murder are overlooked. A dissident Catholic monk named Martin Luther is overlooked. The great schism, the anti-pope, the reformation…

You would think that God walked with man in the breezy part of the day prior to Vatican II.

-Tim-

 

[KP3243]

Not for anything but God has always had a visible authority on earth. In the Old Testament we see God’s continual involvement in the lives of the Israelites through appointed people. God delivered, instructed and admonished the Israelites. He made His motions in a visible, specific and formal way. He always did so through human hands, mouths, feet, minds and wills. God established a law and a means for executing it.

In concert with His redemptive act, Jesus did three things that established the framework of His Church. First, He chose humans to carry out His work. He appointed Peter to be the visible head of the Church. Jesus said to Peter, “You are Rock and on this rock I will build my Church.” (Matthew 16: 18) Jesus said “build,” as in to create a structure. Jesus built His structure on specifically chosen human beings Peter and the apostles.

Second, Jesus gave Peter and the apostles the power and authority to carry out His work. “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.”(Matthew 16:19; 18:18) “Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you retain, they are retained.”(John 20:23)

Third, Jesus gave Peter and the apostles commands as to what that work should be. At the last supper, He commanded, “Do this in memory of Me.” (Luke 22:19) He commanded them to “Make disciples of all nations” (Matthew 28:19), and to “Go into the whole world and proclaim the Gospel to every creature.” (Mark 16:15)

The early Church was structured in a hierarchical manner as it is today. We see in Acts, chapter 15 how the apostles and the elders came together under the leadership of St. Peter to decide the question of what was required of Gentiles. We also see how St. Peter was regarded as the head of the Church when St. Paul, “Went up to Jerusalem to confer with Kephas [Peter] and remained with him fifteen days.” (Galatians 1:18) There is no Scriptural evidence of independent local churches.

The Catholic Church is the only church that can claim to have been founded by Christ personally. Every other church traces its lineage back to a mere human person such as Martin Luther or John Wesley. The Catholic Church can trace its lineage back to Jesus Christ who appointed St. Peter as the first pope. This line of popes has continued unbroken for almost 2,000 years.

God rules, instructs and sanctifies His people through His Church. Under her teaching office, the Catholic Church preserves the Word of God. She is the custodian, keeper, dispenser and interpreter of teachings of Christ. And she accomplishes this under the protection of the Holy Spirit.

 

[bzkoss236]

Ha! That just proves my point. " the humble will be exalted". The papacy is such a contriditcion to that.

Not so. The purpose of the papacy is to be the servant of the people, to dedicate one’s life to the Lord and to bring the Gospel to all the world. Yes, some popes (individually; because popes are people too) have been greedy or corrupt, but that doesn’t mean the entire papacy isn’t a humble position. The idea that a sinner, who is completely unworthy, was asked by God/Christ to watch over HIS flock while he is physically away is certainly a humbling thought. Though, servant to the people doesn’t mean that he has to be subject to the people. People can be served without being subject to them.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Ha! That just proves my point. " the humble will be exalted". The papacy is such a contriditcion to that.

No, the papacy exemplifies that.

 

[Ion]

I think papacy is something unique.
“Love your neighbor” is more than any statement of human rights.
I don’t think that we can “help the politics” inside the Vatican City in any way.

 

[Karen107]

Yeah, I am aware of that. But, if the Vatican were not ALSO a sovereign nation then it would not have its leadership categorized among other leadership models in (for example) the CIA World Factbook.

I was agreeing that the Pope is a monarch, and citing this as supporting evidence. Some people want to claim that the Pope is NOT a monarch, because they have a negative impression of monarchies. But he clearly is, and the whole world agrees.

'=

I’m part of the world and I don’t agree. Jesus Christ is My King. I believe you are confusing roles of the church verses Vatican City government. I don’t live in Vatican City, but if I did I’d want the papacy to govern it, not outsiders who don’t care about the church.

The church SHOULD step out into the world and if that means Vatican City must be a governing body to do the work of the Church so be it. All for the glory of God!