Is the culture of modesty slowly dying?

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Arnold1N2D

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Hello, I want to hear your opinions from this.

This might be sensitive but I wanna hear your insights.

Point #1 Women get raped because of rapists, not because of what they wear.
Point #2 “You should not tell a woman how she should dress!”

By having those two points, I realized that the culture of modesty is being weighted down by the culture of flesh. Because of having the those points, it seems like that the culture of modesty is being crossed out.

The Church teaches us modesty. But how about those people who are in favor of those two points? Does it mean they shun the virtue of modesty?

Can you help me please?

Thanks and God bless!
 
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I think they’re two separate things. I think it is nice to be modest. However, I would never blame a woman for being raped based on what she wears. That is 100% on the rapist. Women get raped whether they wear a potato sack or they walk around in skimpy clothing. So I don’t think that stating that point makes modesty not important. I just don’t think the two should be related. Men should have enough self control that it does not matter what a woman is wearing, they should not rape. As far as point #2, people can be guided in certain directions. However they make their own decisions about what they will wear. It is difficult because modesty is personal and it often has to do with intentions. What might be immodest to one person may be considered modest to another.
 
The world is in the world and of the world and will wear what seems good to them (what brings the satisfaction sought).

We people of God are in the countries where we find ourselves but are not of them; we were called here to be salt and light so the indigenous peoples can see the truth of modesty, of chastity, of charity (love as an infused habit), of faith, of hope.

Be Catholic in the “Sermon on the Mount” sense - the crowds hear Jesus teach this to his Chosen Ones, now let the apparently immodest see his Chosen People in your being this Sermon as Catholics in their midst.
 
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Irishmom2 said:
Rape has nothing to do with modesty.
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Yes, this is a fact. Rape is a crime of power. A rapist is not motivated by uncontrolled sexual desire, rather he’s looking to exert power over his victim. People - men and children as well as women - of all ages from babies right up to 80-year-old grands get raped wearing all kinds of different clothing.

People who acknowledge this fact are not taking some kind of position on modesty. They’re acknowledging a fact about the crime of rape.
 
I definitely think that our society needs to regain a sense of modesty. And I wouldn’t tell someone else how to dress, but I believe exterior (as well as interior) modesty is a great thing and if someone asks my opinion I will gladly offer it.

However, it is never a woman’s fault for getting raped. That is entirely on the rapist, regardless of what she was wearing. Dressing immodestly, while a bad idea, is not an invitation to sexual assault and it is 100% the rapist’s fault. Rape is primarily about power, not sex, and no normal man should be unable to control himself from assaulting a woman even if she walked naked down the street.
 
First, we should never blame a woman for being raped. The rapist is the criminal, NOT the victim.

There are certain circumstances in which it is appropriate to expect women and men to dress conservatively. The workplace is one of them – not because of harassment, that is the fault of the harasser – but because many workplaces are business offices or places where employees meet and interact with the public, and a company’s image is at stake.

How a woman dresses during off hours or in her own home is strictly her business. She has free will and the right to make her own choices.

Rape and harassment in the workplace is due to the lack of self control, and lack of discipline, of the people who commit those acts. While it may be unwise to dress immodestly, the onus is on the men who violate the women. They, too, have free will and can choose NOT to do so.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
Yes, this is a fact. Rape is a crime of power. A rapist is not motivated by uncontrolled sexual desire, rather he’s looking to exert power over his victim. People - men and children as well as women - of all ages from babies right up to 80-year-old grands get raped wearing all kinds of different clothing.

People who acknowledge this fact are not taking some kind of position on modesty. They’re acknowledging a fact about the crime of rape.
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With point 1, while a person may be tempted through the immodest of others (being immodest in a social context is done only to incite lust), a person is abused is not primarily their fault. So holding to point 1 doesn’t cause or endorse immodesty in the culture. Point 2 does, as it excludes telling people to dress in a becoming way for their dignity as a human, and not like a prostitute. The only problem is that males are sometimes overlooked in this instance.
 
Arnold1N2D said:
Point #1 Women get raped because of rapists, not because of what they wear.
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One of the worst countries in the world as far as sexual assault against women goes is Egypt - a Muslim country where most women are extremely modest by Western standards. Of course it is the rapists’ fault, and their fault only, when someone gets raped.
 
You think that not blaming rape victims for being raped shuns something virtuous? I think you really need to reconsider the way you view the world. You seem to be saying that blaming victims would be a way of upholding virtue. You know that it’s not unheard of for nuns to be raped, right?
 
Arnold1N2D said:
I realized that the culture of modesty is being weighted down by the culture of flesh. Because of having the those points, it seems like that the culture of modesty is being crossed out.
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Really? How did you realize that?
Arnold1N2D said:
But how about those people who are in favor of those two points?
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I don’t understand how you’re linking these two points to immodesty. There are a lot of points you can make about immodesty, but these two aren’t among them. I fail to see how you linked not blaming women for being raped and not enforcing a certain dress code on women to modesty dying. Especially since the latter point does not necessarily mean that the woman is going to be immodestly-dressed. In today’s culture, some women choose to dress modestly, while others choose not to. Just as some men dress modestly while others go out in tank tops and shorts.

As for your first point, I fail to see what is it that you object to. The only cause of rape is the rapist. Not what the woman is wearing, as women both modestly and immodestly dressed get raped, as OddBird aptly pointed out.
 
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MeganCecilia said:
However, I would never blame a woman for being raped based on what she wears. That is 100% on the rapist.
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Perfectly said. I think that way of thinking is dying-the “She’s dressing immodestly so it’s partially her fault” is dying, and thank God for that. It was a heinous way to think.
 
It seems like there is some conflating of concepts going on here:
  • Yes, the virtue of modesty has deteriorated in modern time, particularly in the USA, for example.
  • Rape is most generally (but not exclusively) about power (and also control). Men who rape other men in prison often do so out of sexual frustration. Upon leaving they return to heterosexual activity (this phenomenon is known as “gay for a stay.”)
  • The way we dress does not excuse the behavior of others - but it is sometimes foolish to dress in certain ways: (1) When visiting most Near Middle East countries women who dress against the guidance of tour operators and guide books experience all sorts of negative attention, and often are in danger, as a result. Danger of slurs, comments, come-ons, kidnapping, and sexual violence. (2) Wearing the wrong color in a gang neighborhood doesn’t excuse violence, but it may end up getting you shot.
  • Carrying a wallet in your back pocket in certain tourist areas increases the likelihood of being pickpocketed. Wearing an around your neck, inside your shirt travel wallet avoids that.
People commit crimes all the time, and the victims are never to blame, full stop. But, in some cases, taking certain precautions can help avoid them becoming victims in the first place.

Take care of one another,
Deacon Christopher
 
Arnold1N2D said:
Point #1 Women get raped because of rapists, not because of what they wear.
Point #2 “You should not tell a woman how she should dress!”
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I agree with point #1 but I think point 2 is rubbish.

If my wife can tell me what to wear & whether something is inappropriate, I can tell her the same.

Now, back to point #1.

I think this is like “not walking in a bad neighborhood after dark.”

When a person walks in a unsafe neighborhood after dark, they ARE NOT at fault if they are attacked. The sin belongs to the criminal. HOWEVER, if they were not walking there after dark in the first place, their chances of harm is reduced.

It’s the same thing with modest dress. Dressing sexy makes one stand out more to would be rapists.

It’s also like owning a Honda Civic or Honda Accord. They are the most stolen cars (due to parts on black market). Just because you own one of these two cars doesn’t mean you are asking for your car to be stolen. But if you drove something else, the chances of having your car stolen will most likely be reduced.

I pray I’m making sense.

Point is: DO NOT VICTIM SHAME. But it’s also good to teach girls that modesty can reduce (not eliminate) their risk.
 
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phil19034 said:
But it’s also good to teach girls that modesty can reduce (not eliminate) their risk.
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No, it’s good to teach girls that modesty shows self-respect and is pleasing to the Lord.

NOT that “if you dress immodestly then you’re gonna get raped.”
Diaconia said:
The way we dress does not excuse the behavior of others - but it is sometimes foolish to dress in certain ways : (1) When visiting most Near Middle East countries women who dress against the guidance of tour operators and guide books experience all sorts of negative attention, and often are in danger, as a result. Danger of slurs, comments, come-ons, kidnapping, and sexual violence.
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It should be noted that women visiting the Near East who dress in a manner that by Western standards is acceptably modest, even quite conservative, can still get such “negative attention” or be in danger. This is a cultural issue, and it is also a cultural issue/ problem there that men are permitted to treat women badly based on their clothing (or on many other things like whether the woman is out in public alone by herself). None of this reflects Catholicism or Catholic values, as the culture in those countries is not Catholic. One is essentially putting on protective gear to go out, not making any kind of statement on modesty and rape.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
No, it’s good to teach girls that modesty shows self-respect and is pleasing to the Lord.
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Yes, of course. This is self-evident & obviously the main reason.
NOT that “if you dress immodestly then you’re gonna get raped.”
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Bear - I never said if you dress immodestly then you’re gonna get raped. This is a mis-understanding of what I said. I simply meant that if you dress immodest, you draw attention to yourself.

Really, this is no different from what I tell my daughter when her little brother hurts her. I’ve told her time & time again, not to play rough with him because it often winds up with him getting mad & hurting her on purpose or by accident.

I tell her that he’s responsible for his sinful actions when he chooses to hit her on purpose (even though he’s only 5 years old). HOWEVER, if she would listen to me and avoid rough housing with him, things would never escalate to the point where she gets hurt.

So while my son’s sin is greater (when he chooses to hit her out of anger), her choices lead her towards the situation. NOW, that doesn’t mean that my son would never hit my daughter if she didn’t rough house with him. But it doesn’t limit the opportunities for her to get hurt.

BESIDES THE OBVIOUS RELIGIOUS REASONS, dressing modestly helps to reduce the CHANCE of rape. I never said it eliminates the potential. Afterall, nuns have been raped in many parts of the world. And dressing immodest DOESN’T mean one will get raped and surely DOESN’T mean one is asking to be raped. It simply increases the chance of being noticed.

BTW - dressing extremely modestly (i.e. like an Amish woman) can make a woman stand out too. There are plenty of ways of dressing modestly which preserves beauty & still make a woman not stick out like a sore thumb.

I hope I’m making sense, because I know this is a touchy subject for many.
 
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