Is the dark ages a myth or reality?

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As always, I need to remind you that English is not my first language, so I apologize for any misspellings.

Some people said that the Dark ages are not as bad as the media trying to show it , others go to deny that there was dark ages in the first place.

What you think?
 
As always, I need to remind you that English is not my first language, so I apologize for any misspellings.

Some people said that the Dark ages are not as bad as the media trying to show it , others go to deny that there was dark ages in the first place.
It depends on your definition of Dark Ages.

What is your definition of the dark ages?
 
It depends on your definition of Dark Ages.

What is your definition of the dark ages?
As I know it and raised hearing people talking about .It is time when the church was the political and religious authority, and anyone who hold beliefs that are against the church, was getting killed. So many people was under the church control and no one was able to speak their minds freely, times when the rich people was the friends of the church, while the poor was nothing more than worthless people…etc. Of course this is what I watched in the movies and read about.
 
As I know it and raised hearing people talking about .It is time when the church was the political and religious authority, and anyone who hold beliefs that are against the church, was getting killed. So many people was under the church control and no one was able to speak their minds freely, times when the rich people was the friends of the church, while the poor was nothing more than worthless people…etc. Of course this is what I watched in the movies and read about.
What you describe would be almost a complete myth. And it is not even the common accepted definition of the deal ages, which itself has lots of problems
 
The original historical sense of the “Dark Ages” was the time when the light of civilization was extinguished by the overthrow of the Roman Empire by the Barbarian hordes. This would roughly be from the years 450 AD to 800 AD when the Holy Roman Empire was established by Charlemagne, thus ushering in the beginning of the Middle Ages. 🙂

The early understanding of an “age” in English was a century. 😉
 
Usually, the Dark Ages are considered to be from (roughly) 400 to (roughly) 800 A.D. These times were, in fact, pretty chaotic and violent. But Europe was in these times still largely pagan and with little government (civil or church) authority or control, except at the local level. With Charlemagne (800 A.D.) paganism declined steadily and Europe became steadily mor civil. The Middle Ages, while far from ideal, was a time when paganism dissapeared, the Faith became triumphant in Europe, modern nation-states developed, and universities were founded and modern literature and science took root. Mass attendance was widespread. these things are not bad.
 
Usually, the Dark Ages are considered to be from (roughly) 400 to (roughly) 800 A.D. These times were, in fact, pretty chaotic and violent. But Europe was in these times still largely pagan and with little government (civil or church) authority or control, except at the local level. With Charlemagne (800 A.D.) paganism declined steadily and Europe became steadily mor civil. The Middle Ages, while far from ideal, was a time when paganism dissapeared, the Faith became triumphant in Europe, modern nation-states developed, and universities were founded and modern literature and science took root. Mass attendance was widespread. these things are not bad.
This eventually culminated with the invention of the printing press, which allowed ideas to spread much faster. This of course led to the Renaissance, the Scientific Revolution, the (English) Enlightenment (The enlightenment thinkers from England gave us capitalism and were, though some of them were nontrinitarians, Christians. The ideas of the Christian thinkers from England led to the creation of the United States went from a small rebel colony to a superpower in little over a single century. The ideas of the atheist thinkers in France gave us the French revolution, which saw a king being overthrown only to be replaced by a genocidal tyrant who was overthrown by an emperor who was overthrown by other countries who reinstated the same family who was overthrown in the first place who was later overthrown to be replaced by an emperor who was the nephew of the first emperor who was only overthrown after the Germans rolled over the French in 6 weeks and was replaced by a communist government which led to a civil war and finally a socialistic government which was overthrown by the Germans again and replaced by a Fascist government which was overthrown by the Allies and replaced by what they have today), and finally the Industrial Revolution
 
As always, I need to remind you that English is not my first language, so I apologize for any misspellings.

Some people said that the Dark ages are not as bad as the media trying to show it , others go to deny that there was dark ages in the first place.

What you think?
The “Dark Ages” are neither myth nor reality, it’s just a time period in history referred to by that name.

“Dark Ages” was a term first coined by historians to refer to a period in European history when little was written down and so there is little record of what happened - they didn’t know what was going on because it was “dark” - with very few documents “light” the past with.

Even the Church kept few written records.

Later on, when more information came to light and the period was known to be characterized by constant warring, extreme poverty, low life expectancy and so forth, people started to associate the terms “Dark Ages” with widespread ignorance and illiteracy. It was the Church that kept what there was of intellectual life alive, mostly in monasteries where there were libraries and where monks reproduced Scripture.

We come out of the Dark Ages when paper technology advances and it finally becomes an affordable commodity, when the Church rises to temporal power and Saint Francis and Dominic spread the Faith widely over Europe.
 
As always, I need to remind you that English is not my first language, so I apologize for any misspellings.

Some people said that the Dark ages are not as bad as the media trying to show it , others go to deny that there was dark ages in the first place.

What you think?
I recall reading a book in a history class in college (many moons ago) that stated there was in fact a Renaissance during the Merovingian era, which is erroneously called the the Dark Ages, and that a significant part of that period was not considered so “dark.” Unfortunately, I don’t recall the details off-hand, but I’m sure others will be able to fill you in.
 
I recall reading a book in a history class in college (many moons ago) that stated there was in fact a Renaissance during the Merovingian era, which is erroneously called the the Dark Ages, and that a significant part of that period was not considered so “dark.” Unfortunately, I don’t recall the details off-hand, but I’m sure others will be able to fill you in.
There was definitely a renaissance during the twelfth century, though this is off-topic.

The Industrial Revolution gave us mass-produced dark chocolate. This brings us full circle.
 
The fact that the term has pretty much gone out of use by scholars (that time period is now termed the early medieval period) should point to how creditable the claims associated with the “dark ages” are. Cathedral, Forge, and Waterwheel : Technology and Invention in the Middle Ages is a work done by Frances and Joseph Gies. While it is more concerned with advances in technology during the medieval period (which includes the time frame of the “dark ages”), it also does a good job of disproving the “dark ages” myth and the common myth that the Renaissance was due to the Church losing its absolute political power over Western European kingdoms and the rediscovery of lost Roman works (the technological advances during the Renaissance are founded on the introduction of non-Roman technology from Eastern Asia introduced to Europe during the “dark ages”).

Ironically the best proof that the Church didn’t cause the “dark ages”, didn’t hold absolute political power, and didn’t retard technological advances or living conditions during the time period is the Anglo-Saxon period of England (roughly 476 AD to 1066 AD). I say ironically because I believe the scholar who coined the term and made it popular was English.
 
**The original historical sense of the “Dark Ages” was the time when the light of civilization was extinguished by the overthrow of the Roman Empire by the Barbarian hordes. ** This would roughly be from the years 450 AD to 800 AD when the Holy Roman Empire was established by Charlemagne, thus ushering in the beginning of the Middle Ages. 🙂

The early understanding of an “age” in English was a century. 😉
Hi OP,

The bolded sentence above is important to understand when seeking to discuss the impact of Church power and its effect upon the rest of society. The “Dark Ages” fall under the broader category of historical periods known as the Middle Ages, which is classified (roughly) from the 5th to 15th centuries, and includes sub-catergorical periods such as the medieval, high-middle age, and early renaissance.

Contrary to an often-mistaken belief that what we refer to as the “Dark Ages” is synonymous with the rise of the Christian church, quite the opposite is true: The Catholic Church achieved the height of its power during the *medieval *ages. The medieval period, which lasted from about 1000a.d. and onward, falls also within the category of the Middle Ages, though it was a time period that was markedly different from the actual “Dark” Ages, which was the earlier timeframe in which Europe was ravaged by conquering hordes and little-to-no artistic, intellectual, theological, or scientific progress was made.

In comparison to the Dark Ages, the medieval period birthed many new ideas regarding spirituality, nature, science, medicine, higher learning, and public welfare.
As I know it and raised hearing people talking about .It is time when the church was the political and religious authority, and anyone who hold beliefs that are against the church, was getting killed. So many people was under the church control and no one was able to speak their minds freely, times when the rich people was the friends of the church, while the poor was nothing more than worthless people…etc. Of course this is what I watched in the movies and read about.
Let’s examine these statements a bit more deeply; it’s also important to spot gross exagerrations and embellishments which take isolated and complicated issues and spin them into a sort of “norm” for the times. For example:
  1. “So many people were under Church control”.
Is this true? Well, yes and no. The medieval period is especially noted for feudalism, and feudalism by its very definition (though I believe some historians offer varying definitions) describes a societal structure in which classes worked for, and were subject to landholders. Medieval kingdoms were not ruled by the Church (ie;, the Pope) - they were ruled by kings and queens. In addition to monarchial control of the nation/region, land was also owned by noblemen (who also had some power to enforce laws) and some clergy (many of whom were themselves from noble families). As the Christian church had great influence over the spiritual matters of the people, the monarchs who governed these people naturally had close connections to church authorities, and submitted to or collaborated with them on many matters.

So while in *essence *one could say that the people were under “Church control”, (if this phrase is meant to be the counterpart to separation of church and state), in *literal *terms they were subject to the direct laws of the reigning monarchs, who in turn happened to be *members *of the Christian church who at times influenced many of their policies. It’s at this point that some “historians” who prefer to cast a negative light upon the Church decide that Church influence was a “bad” thing. I disagree, and we can delve into more detail on that later.🙂
  1. “No one was able to speak their minds freely”.
It’s a bit hard to respond to that. In the first place, to what are these people referring when they say this? Speaking their minds freely about taxation? The desire for protection? Unfair zoning laws that allowed land to be cleared for the construction of cathedrals? I mean, that’s just such a vague and ambiguous statement to make. Secondly, I would be interested in seeing statistical polls in which the majority of medieval citizens were asked if they felt they had freedom of speech, to which they answered “No”. 😃 It’s kind of silly to make such a generalization using the words “no one” because quite frankly, the majority of the population at the time was illiterate, and I doubt that there was much in the way of public debate.

I would surmise that - as opposed to today’s technological age in which actual labor requirements can be reduced to a fraction of what they used to be and hence modern people have both the time and opportunity/convenience to organize protests and lobbies to appeal to the powers on behalf of their wishes - most medieval citizens were just content to keep a roof over their heads and fill their bellies with food. I doubt there was much contention taking place on a regular basis (by the majority population, at least), until people felt directly and continuously threatened. We’re just used to hearing people whine about every little thing nowadays (myself included:o:D).
 
… . . . . . .cont’d
  1. “Anyone who held beliefs against the Church was getting killed”
Firstly, this claim is using that same “anyone and everyone” generalization as above, so the same requests for clarification apply. I expect to see a very long list of people who were killed by the church for simply holding opposing beliefs if we’re using the word “anyone” - this list should be at least 160 pages long, considering the population of the time and taking into account deaths from the bubonic plague. 😉 Secondly, punishment for government opposition happened all the time, and currently does to this day; it’s not exactly something unique to Christianity that can be used as a good example against Church control. Thirdly, of the relatively few historical cases in which people were condemned for heretical beliefs, I’d opt to delve into a more detailed account of the conflict. In cases such as these, was capital punishment meted out over a simple difference of opinion, or were political and far-reaching tensions highly involved in the matter?

(As an aside, when you hear the above statement being made, consider this: of the most influential dissenters who struggled against the Catholic Church, Henry VIII, John Wycliffe, Ulrich Zwyngli, John Calvin, and Martin Luther all managed to escape a supposed Catholic killing spree and lived to relatively ripe old ages. This should somewhat balance out the illogicity of the claim that the Church was offing heretics left and right, no?😉
  1. " the rich people was the friends of the church, while the poor was nothing more than worthless people"
Many of the rich were friends of the Church. And some of them were enemies of the Church. But overall, yes; the wealthy contributed to most of the Church’s endeavors. Is this a bad thing?:confused: Those who like to single-mindedly focus on the Church delving into its coffers to purchase land and finance the Crusades often lose sight of the fact that money was used for other purposes as well, most of them being beneficial to the faithful. Cathedrals were built for the glory of God, so that *all *could worship and seek solace in them. The Church also used its money to build universities, send its clergy into the village to teach the Bible and Latin to the people, maintain its monasteries in which the monks dutifully recorded history by hand, so that the events and accomplishments of the past would not be lost in another barbaric invasion. Not to mention, as another poster notes, the funding of hospitals that tended to the sick, and the hostels that arose to cater to weary travellers.

The poor were certainly not considered “worthless people” - my goodness, who the heck said that? Such a statement is not only ridiculous, but completely and utterly unfounded. It was in fact the intense focus on inundating Christianity in all aspects of society that characterized Europe’s concentration on the dignity of mankind, his place in the universe, and the worth of the individual soul. Medieval literature is consistent with this concern. One can easily see the evidence for this by googling “medieval church and social welfare”.

What I would suggest overall regarding the content of my post is for anyone who is interested in this historical study to take into consideration the: A.) Context of the time frame which they are studying, including the prevailing thoughts, ideas, and attitudes of the culture, B.) The possible bias of the person making historical judgments (and yes, Catholics can be biased too!), and C.) the level of civilization under Christian power as opposed to what is was *before *Christianity arose in influence, and D) what Christian civilization was achieving in comparison with the non-Christian cultures of the time.

I think you’ll come to the conclusion that Catholic influence wasn’t all that “dark” after all.🙂
 
As always, I need to remind you that English is not my first language, so I apologize for any misspellings.

Some people said that the Dark ages are not as bad as the media trying to show it , others go to deny that there was dark ages in the first place.

What you think?
yep, i’d say we are in the dark ages,

but i might be a tad cynical
 
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