Is the Death Penalty intrinsically evil?

[Caveman]

I just finished reading an article on Spero News concerning a criminal who has been scheduled for execution next month for the sexual assault and murder of a 3 yr old girl.

I’ve since posted a question if the death penalty is intrinsically evil? I say no.

I know this sticks in the craw of many… but The Church, for 2,000 years, has traditionalay maintained the right of legitimate govt’s to utilize the DP in cases of extreme gravity. And I consider the sexual assault and murder of a baby to be extreme.

But anyhow, I’m not asking if individuals are in favor or against such… but if it’s intrinsically evil.

My take is here.

 

[Dale_M]

Someone else can probably frame it in words better than I can, but I don’t think “intrinsically evil” is the phrase for which we are looking. The Catechism, in section 2267, recognizes that historically the Church has defended use of the death penalty. But the section concludes:

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

My take on it is that the death penalty is evil, but in rare circumstances, a necessary evil that is proportionate to the risks posed to society. I think the examples which Cavemen mentions fail the test of being a proportionate risk to society. We have good means of containing such offenders in prison. A better example might be the execution of Saddam Hussein, whose followers were destabilizing Iraq and who might have ultimately freed him. But such examples are very rare.

 

[Tietjen]

I just finished reading an article on Spero News concerning a criminal who has been scheduled for execution next month for the sexual assault and murder of a 3 yr old girl.

I’ve since posted a question if the death penalty is intrinsically evil? I say no.

I know this sticks in the craw of many… but The Church, for 2,000 years, has traditionalay maintained the right of legitimate govt’s to utilize the DP in cases of extreme gravity. And I consider the sexual assault and murder of a baby to be extreme.

But anyhow, I’m not asking if individuals are in favor or against such… but if it’s intrinsically evil.

My take is here.

No, it’s not intrinsically evil.

 

[Caveman]

My take on it is that the death penalty is evil, but in rare circumstances, a necessary evil that is proportionate to the risks posed to society. I think the examples which Cavemen mentions fail the test of being a proportionate risk to society. We have good means of containing such offenders in prison. A better example might be the execution of Saddam Hussein, whose followers were destabilizing Iraq and who might have ultimately freed him. But such examples are very rare.

Dale, I’m not asking if any of us think it’s needed… I’m asking if you think it’s intrinsically evil.

BTW, any given Catholic can agree with the usage of the DP without having the stain of mortal sin on their soul.

 

[Dale_M]

Dale, I’m not asking if any of us think it’s needed… I’m asking if you think it’s intrinsically evil.

Yes, I understand. I don’t think it is intrinsically evil because the Catechism allows for it.

 

[buffalo]

No.

 

[manualman]

Catechsim answers the question fairlyneatly: NOT intrinsically evil.

Nevertheless, it CAN be evil to use it in cases where it is not appropriate. Though not a de fide principle, recent popes have stated that modern stable states have no reason to resort to it.

 

[Caveman]

Catechsim answers the question fairlyneatly: NOT intrinsically evil.

Nevertheless, it CAN be evil to use it in cases where it is not appropriate. Though not a de fide principle, recent popes have stated that modern stable states have no reason to resort to it.

MM,
What about the case of unstable modern states? BTW, I don’t believe that any pope has ever stated that there “is no reason” to resort to it. They may be against it… but they have never been conditional.

Which brings me to my next question; as a citizen of a modern stable state, I happen to agree that the DP can and should be used in cases of extreme gravity, and only rarely.

Does that mean I have the stain of mortal sin on my soul?

 

[bjmiller100753]

"Which brings me to my next question; as a citizen of a modern stable state, I happen to agree that the DP can and should be used in cases of extreme gravity, and only rarely.

Does that mean I have the stain of mortal sin on my soul?"

The short answer would be, “No.” I’d suggest you read the “Church Teaching on the Death Penalty” by Ferdinand Mary at the top of the Social Justice forum.

 

[Caveman]

"Which brings me to my next question; as a citizen of a modern stable state, I happen to agree that the DP can and should be used in cases of extreme gravity, and only rarely.

Does that mean I have the stain of mortal sin on my soul?"

The short answer would be, “No.” I’d suggest you read the “Church Teaching on the Death Penalty” by Ferdinand Mary at the top of the Social Justice forum.

I have, thank you. I’d like to point out that FM’s posting isn’t all inclusive of the totality of official Church Teaching on the subject.

 

[Kevin42]

I am unsure, but I believe in the United States, it may be morally wrong to support the death penalty, or at least in the form the United States applies it. John Paul II in his encyclical “The Gospel of Life” states the death penalty, “ought not to go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: in other words, when it would not be possible to otherwise defend society. Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent.” Furthermore, according to this encyclical, it is not the gravity of the crime that effects whether or not the death penalty should be used, but on weather or not, “it would not be possible to otherwise defend society.” So, no matter how disgusting the crime, the death penalty should not be used if society can still be protect by some form of punishment that preserves the offenders life.

It is also worthy to note that the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has recognized it as their responsibility to call for an end to the death penalty for the past 28 years. In a document released in 2005, they list several reasons why the death penalty should be abolished as a form of punishment in the United States:

• The sanction of death, when it is not necessary to protect society, violates the respect for human life and dignity.

• State-sanctioned killing in our name diminishes all of us.

• It’s application is deeply flawed and can be irreversibly wrong, is prone to errors, and is biased on factors such as race, the quality of legal representation, and where the crime was committed.

• We have other ways to punish criminals and protect society.

SOURCE

Because of their first response which states, “The sanction of death, when it is not necessary to protect society, violates the respect for human life and dignity,” I am inclined to believe that since it would be a violation of human life and dignity, that it could be, and indeed likely is, morally wrong to support the death penalty in the United States.

Of course, all of this lies on the basis of weather or not you believe our prison system is safe. If you do not feel that our prison system is safe, then that in itself is worrisome, and I suggest that you quickly take it up with the government since peoples’ lives are at risk. If however, you do believe our prison system is safe, as I do, and as our bishops do, and as Pope John Paul II most likely did as well, I do not believe that you can support the death penalty in the United States.

 

[stbruno]

priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/80-11cappun.htm

Here’s what the bishops said about Capital punishment.

 

[rlg94086]

priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/80-11cappun.htm

Here’s what the bishops said about Capital punishment.

So, no, it is not intinsically evil, according to our bishops.

 

[Kevin42]

The source I gave is actually the newer pastoral statement from the bishops on the death penalty (2005 vs. 1980).

But to answer the question, it’s not intrinsically evil. However, since it is apparently unnecessary in the United States, I-to say the least-believe that it is unreasonable to support it.

 

[rlg94086]

The source I gave is actually the newer pastoral statement from the bishops on the death penalty (2005 vs. 1980).

But to answer the question, it’s not intrinsically evil.

Yep. It is clearly stated on page 13:

Recourse to the death penalty is not absolutely excluded (see no. 2267): the death penalty is not intrinsically evil, as is the intentional taking of
innocent life through abortion or euthanasia (see nos.2271 , 2272 ).

Kevin42:

However, since it is apparently unnecessary in the United States, I-to say the least-believe that it is unreasonable to support it.

The problem with your conclusion that it is “unreasonable to support it” is that it is based on your arguable premise that the death penalty is “apparently unnecessary.” Since reasonable people disagree with that premise and present reasonable arguments, it is not unreasonable to support the death penalty.

What the bishops ask Catholics to do is to consider their arguments and inform our consciences. They ask us to pray and work toward a culture of life. The document does not say that Catholics who support the death penalty are unreasonable or that they are going against Church teaching.

 

[Kevin42]

The only reason I say apparently unnecessary is because I have not yet been able to think of something that would make it necessary. Unless the assumption is that our prison system is basically unsafe, then I can find no other reason that would be valid enough to support the death penalty in the United States. That being said, I am certainly open to what others have to say, and I am open to allowing my current opinion to be swayed. If the Church allows for it in certain instances, I am certainly not going to disagree with that. However, my growing impression is that it is indeed wrong in the United States. Again though, I am open to others’ thoughts.

 

[Caveman]

priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/80-11cappun.htm

Here’s what the bishops said about Capital punishment.

Admittitly, I haven’t read the link provided, but allow me to state that the bishops have no magesterial authority, with the exception of enforcing what’s already in the books, so to say.

 

[Caveman]

I am unsure, but I believe in the United States, it may be morally wrong to support the death penalty, or at least in the form the United States applies it.

So what’s sinful in America ISN’T sinful in Paraguay or Mozambique? That makes absolutely no sense at all. By that logic, a poor family would find it morally acceptable to abort a child.

C’mon, Kevin… we either have moral absolutes or we don’t. We can’t have it both ways.

John Paul II in his encyclical “The Gospel of Life” states the death penalty, “ought not to go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: in other words, when it would not be possible to otherwise defend society. Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, **if **not practically non-existent.” Furthermore, according to this encyclical, it is not the gravity of the crime that effects whether or not the death penalty should be used, but on weather or not, “it would not be possible to otherwise defend society.” So, no matter how disgusting the crime, the death penalty should not be used if society can still be protect by some form of punishment that preserves the offenders life.

Keep in mind that what Pope John Paul stated wasn’t binding upon pain of sin. Even PP JPII left the door open for the DP.

By the way, I’m sure where you see where I emphasised the word “if” above. I did that for a reason.

“IF” is a mighty big word. Just what** IF** a case happens where to be existant that requires the DP? The wording used by PP JP2 is just too open-ended.

 

[Kevin42]

So what’s sinful in America IS sinful in Paraguay? That makes absolutely no sense at all. By that logic, a poor family would find it morally acceptable to abort a child.

To me, that may seem to be the case. The prison system here is wonderful (as far as keeping us protected I mean…). I do not know about the prison system in Paraguay. However it is possible that a criminal that could be locked up here, and safely removed from society…whereas a person who committed the same crime in “Paraguay” may not be safely removed from society by simply being imprisoned.

This is in no way similar to aborting a child though. Taking a child is taking a completly innocent life for selfish reasons, This has to do with weather or not someone can be allowed to live, but be safely removed from society.

Keep in mind that what Pope John Paul stated wasn’t binding upon pain of sin. Even PP JPII left the door open for such.

By the way, I’m sure where you see where I emphasised the word “if” above. I did that for a reason.

“IF” is a mighty big word.

I am aware of that. However, I am much more inclined to follow the lead of the Pope on this than I am my own, or others’ opinions. I do not mean that in an offensive way, but am merely stating it.

Also he said, “such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent.” I read that as he is saying these cases at least are very rare if they are not non-existent. In the United States, I believe we have around 3500 people on death row. To me, that seems like a little too many to be counted as “very rare, if not practically non-existent.”

 

[Caveman]

The only reason I say apparently unnecessary is because I** have not yet been able to think of something that would make it necessary**. Unless the assumption is that our prison system is basically unsafe, then I can find no other reason that would be valid enough to support the death penalty in the United States. That being said, I am certainly open to what others have to say, and I am open to allowing my current opinion to be swayed. If the Church allows for it in certain instances, I am certainly not going to disagree with that. However, my growing impression is that it is indeed wrong in the United States. Again though, I am open to others’ thoughts.

Consider this – what ever happened to expiation of sin? Dependant upon the gravity of the offense, is the direct gravity of equal consiquence of my pennance… right?

With that in mind, if you or I are capable of committing one of the most vile and disgusting acts on another human being, shouldn’t there be, for the sake of our soul, a pennance that equates to the offense?

Look to the example of The Good Theif (St Dismas) on Calvary. Remember when the Bad Theif mocked Jesus, but St Dismas shut down the Bad Theif.

Remember “This Man has done no wrong, but we are getting what we deserve.” I’m sure you recall that Jesus never corrected nor refuted what St Dismas said… in fact, it was only after St Dismas confessed his sin, took responsibility for his actions, accepted his punishment, and lastly, spiritually embraced Christ… only then did Jesus promise Salvation to St Dismas, right?

We have to be accountable for our actions, and ready to accept the corresponding punishments that come with our offenses.

Another point to consider – I’ve already mentioned expiation of sin, but remember that sometimes expiation absolutely REQUIRES a blood sacrifice.

Here’s what I’m getting at. I’m sure we’re in agreement that Jesus is God, right? Right! And I’m equally sure that we’re in agreement that the entire reason Jesus became man was so He could take the sin of mankind upon Himself, and therefore, erase all past sin and open the Gates of Heaven.

Now with Jesus being God, couldn’t He have simply waved His arm and stated “It’s done. All sin is forgiven!”? Of course He could… but He didn’t.

Christ KNEW that sin required a blood sacrifice. HIS blood sacrifice! Anything less would be empty and hollow.

With all that said, if I were to ever murder someone, for the sake of my soul, a equal expiation of the sin I committed is demanded of me. After all, anything less would be empty and hollow.

I look forward to your response.

The Catholic Caveman