Is the Death Penalty intrinsically evil?

[Caveman]

To me, that may seem to be the case. The prison system here is wonderful (as far as keeping us protected I mean…).

As a former Correctional Officer, I can tell you that the prison system in this country is far from “wonderful”. There’s plenty of extortion, rape, and murder in the prisons.

I do not know about the prison system in Paraguay. However it is possible that a criminal that could be locked up here, and safely removed from society…whereas a person who committed the same crime in “Paraguay” may not be safely removed from society by simply being imprisoned.

Kevin, my friend, now you’re trying to have it both ways. First I heard about “stable nations”… but what about unstable nations? Like I said… what’s a sin in America sure as hell is suppose to be a sin on Paraguay. Anything else is nothing more thatn what pope Benedict called The Dictatorship of Relativism.

This is in no way similar to aborting a child though. Taking a child is taking a completly innocent life for selfish reasons, This has to do with weather or not someone can be allowed to live, but be safely removed from society.

But it is similar, Kevin. If you’re going to tell me that sin is conditional upon political border or geography… than ALL questions of morality are dependant on political borders or geography. Again… we can’t have it both ways.

I am aware of that. However, I am much more inclined to follow the lead of the Pope on this than I am my own, or others’ opinions.

If you want to follow the opinoins of PP JP2, no problem! But I must ask, have you read the latest from Pope Benedict? (click here)

I think you would find it interesting.

CC

 

[Caveman]

To me, that may seem to be the case. The prison system here is wonderful (as far as keeping us protected I mean…).

As a former Correctional Officer, I can tell you that the prison system in this country is far from “wonderful”. There’s plenty of extortion, rape, and murder in the prisons.

I do not know about the prison system in Paraguay. However it is possible that a criminal that could be locked up here, and safely removed from society…whereas a person who committed the same crime in “Paraguay” may not be safely removed from society by simply being imprisoned.

Kevin, my friend, now you’re trying to have it both ways. First I heard about “stable nations”… but what about unstable nations? Like I said… what’s a sin in America sure as hell is suppose to be a sin on Paraguay. Anything else is nothing more thatn what pope Benedict called The Dictatorship of Relativism.

This is in no way similar to aborting a child though. Taking a child is taking a completly innocent life for selfish reasons, This has to do with weather or not someone can be allowed to live, but be safely removed from society.

But it is similar, Kevin. If you’re going to tell me that sin is conditional upon political border or geography… than ALL questions of morality are dependant on political borders or geography. Again… we can’t have it both ways.

I am aware of that. However, I am much more inclined to follow the lead of the Pope on this than I am my own, or others’ opinions.

If you want to follow the opinoins of PP JP2, no problem! But I must ask, have you read the latest from Pope Benedict? (click here)

I think you would find it interesting.

In the United States, I believe we have around 3500 people on death row. To me, that seems like a little too many to be counted as “very rare, if not practically non-existent.”

In a nation of 300 million, 3,500 IS rare! And you can bet these guys aren’t on death row for missing Altar Boy practice.

CC

 

[Kevin42]

You raise a very interesting point, and I must admit I had not given that aspect as much consideration. I am unsure of what to make of it, but I will just raise several points. While ones’ penance should be reasonably fit with their sin, I wonder if life in prison would not be a reasonable penance? I say this for two reasons:

• The penance does not matter if the person is not sorry, and allowing them to live gives them time to make an act of contrition whereas otherise they may not.
• Also allowing them to live allows them much more time to do penance and also do works that can result in good, not only in there lives, but in the lives of others.

So, is death really a greater penance than life without parole could be? Furthermore is it really a penance if you do not accept it, and it is enforce upon you by outside forces?

And while this is not binding, again, I offer you Pope John Paul II’s thoughts:

Punishment cannot be reduced to mere retribution, much less take the form of social retaliation or a sort of institutional vengeance. Punishment and imprisonment have meaning if they serve the rehabilitation of the individual by offering those who have made a mistake an opportunity to reflect and to change their lives in order to be fully reintegrated into society.

(Pope John Paul II, Jubilee Homily to Prisoners, Rome, July 2002)

Here are more statements by our beloved Pope John Paul II if you should be interested in reading them:

usccb.org/sdwp/national/deathpenalty/holyfather.shtml

 

[rlg94086]

Admittitly, I haven’t read the link provided, but allow me to state that the bishops have no magesterial authority, with the exception of enforcing what’s already in the books, so to say.

Actually, it is a quite reasonable document, and they clearly state that a Catholic view which supports maintaining capital punishment is compatible with Catholic tradition:

We recognize that many citizens may believe that capital punishment should be maintained as an integral part of our society’s response to the evils of crime, nor is this position incompatible with Catholic tradition. We acknowledge the depth and the sincerity of their concern. We urge them to review the considerations we have offered which show both the evils associated with capital punishment and the harmony of the abolition of capital punishment with the values of the Gospel. We urge them to bear in mind that public decisions in this area affect the lives, the hopes and the fears of men and women who share both the misery and the grandeur of human life with us and who, like us, are among those sinners whom the Son of Man came to save.

I think both documents (stbruno’s link and Kevin42’s link) are fair and present the Bishop’s views for consideration. There is no attempt to say that Catholics must oppose the Death Penalty (as some posters will occasionally claim).

 

[Caveman]

You raise a very interesting point, and I must admit I had not given that aspect as much consideration. I am unsure of what to make of it, but I will just raise several points. While ones’ penance should be reasonably fit with their sin, I wonder if life in prison would not be a reasonable penance? I say this for two reasons:

• The penance does not matter if the person is not sorry, and allowing them to live gives them time to make an act of contrition whereas otherise they may not.

An Act of Contrition takes less than 10 seconds to say. As far as those who aren’t sorry, I’ll answer that a bit later in this post.*

• Also allowing them to live allows them much more time to do penance and also do works that can result in good, not only in there lives, but in the lives of others.

So why did Jesus allow St Dismas to die? The words “but we are getting what we deserve” keep ringing in my ears.

So, is death really a greater penance than life without parole could be?

I would say it is. After all… how often do we hear the mantra that “life without parole is MUCH WORSE than the DP!”? We hear it all the time!

But if life without parole is “so much worse”… than why is everyone on death row fighting tooth and nail to get their sentence changed to life in prison?

Furthermore is it really a penance if you do not accept it, and it is enforce upon you by outside forces?

*Acceptance of pennance is always up to the individual. We both know what heppens to those who die unrepentant.

 

[Caveman]

Actually, it is a quite reasonable document, and they clearly state that a Catholic view which supports maintaining capital punishment is compatible with Catholic tradition:

I think both documents (stbruno’s link and Kevin42’s link) are fair and present the Bishop’s views for consideration. There is no attempt to say that Catholics must oppose the Death Penalty (as some posters will occasionally claim).

RLG,
Thanks for the quote. But allow me to reinterate that the bishops don’t make policy… they’re suppose to enforce it.

In the portion you’ve posted, I saw the word “urge” a couple of times. And your right… the bishops can ask us to look upon an certain subject through their collective eyes.

Personally, I have, and I reject their urging on the grounds that their request is neither Biblically nor Traditionally grounded, but more is more in keeping with the views of the proponents of the so-called Age of Enlightement than the views of Sts. Paul, Augustine, or Thomas Aqauinas.

But nonetheless, thanks for your thought provoking response!

 

[rlg94086]

RLG,
Thanks for the quote. But allow me to reinterate that the bishops don’t make policy… they’re suppose to enforce it.

In the portion you’ve posted, I saw the word “urge” a couple of times. And your right… the bishops can ask us to look upon an certain subject through their collective eyes.

Personally, I have, and I reject their urging on the grounds that their request is neither Biblically nor Traditionally grounded, but more is more in keeping with the views of the proponents of the so-called Age of Enlightement than the views of Sts. Paul, Augustine, or Thomas Aqauinas.

But nonetheless, thanks for your thought provoking response!

Personally, I am in the middle on this issue. I believe we dole out capital punishment too frequently (not the actual executions, but the sentencing), but I am not wholly opposed to it. The “special circumstances” just need to be tightened IMHO.

Regarding the “urging” of the bishops, I see nothing wrong with it. They are presenting the same view Pope John Paul II gave and as long as it doesn’t conflict with magisterial teaching, they are doing what they are supposed to be doing as bishops…guiding their flocks.

 

[bjmiller100753]

Kevin42 quotes JPII, “Punishment cannot be reduced to mere retribution, much less take the form of social retaliation or a sort of institutional vengeance. Punishment and imprisonment have meaning if they serve the rehabilitation of the individual by offering those who have made a mistake an opportunity to reflect and to change their lives in order to be fully reintegrated into society.”

Let me state unequivocally that JPII will always be much smarter than I could ever hope to be but I am going to have to respectfully disagree with him here. Murderers reflecting on the “mistake” they have made so they can change their lives in order to be FULLY reintegrated into society? Spare me. We’re all very much aware of the recidivism rate of criminals convicted of less serious crimes. Not only does someone like Charles Manson NEVER deserve a chance to return to society (would YOU want to be his new next door neighbor?) but his repeated parole hearings are an insult to the families of all those he murdered and a sad commentary on some of the twisted practices of our government/legal system. Quite frankly, Charles Manson should have been put to death a long, long time ago.

 

[Caveman]

Regarding the “urging” of the bishops, I see nothing wrong with it. They are presenting the same view Pope John Paul II gave and as long as it doesn’t conflict with magisterial teaching, they are doing what they are supposed to be doing as bishops…guiding their flocks.

But in what direction are they guiding them? Certainly one that isn’t in keeping with 2,000 years of solid Catholic teaching.

 

[Caveman]

Kevin42 quotes JPII, “Punishment cannot be reduced to mere retribution, much less take the form of social retaliation or a sort of institutional vengeance. Punishment and imprisonment have meaning if they serve the rehabilitation of the individual by offering those who have made a mistake an opportunity to reflect and to change their lives in order to be fully reintegrated into society.”

Let me state unequivocally that JPII will always be much smarter than I could ever hope to be but I am going to have to respectfully disagree with him here. Murderers reflecting on the “mistake” they have made so they can change their lives in order to be FULLY reintegrated into society? Spare me. We’re all very much aware of the recidivism rate of criminals convicted of less serious crimes. Not only does someone like Charles Manson NEVER deserve a chance to return to society (would YOU want to be his new next door neighbor?) but his repeated parole hearings are an insult to the families of all those he murdered and a sad commentary on some of the twisted practices of our government/legal system. Quite frankly, Charles Manson should have been put to death a long, long time ago.

And might I add that punishment IS rehabilitation.

On the secular level, for their character.

On the theological level, for their soul.

 

[rlg94086]

But in what direction are they guiding them? Certainly one that isn’t in keeping with 2,000 years of solid Catholic teaching.

Are you saying the opposite of some anti-death-penalty Catholics - that a Catholic must support the death penalty? Do you believe that the current Catechism is in error on the death penalty? I don’t think that is correct either. I think opposition to the death penalty is a completely acceptable Catholic position. I don’t see how the bishops are guiding Catholics away from “solid Catholic teaching” on this one.

 

[Caveman]

Are you saying the opposite of some anti-death-penalty Catholics - that a Catholic must support the death penalty?

I have no problem with anyone being against the DP. I take offense to those who try to tell me that I MUST be against the DP upon pain of sin.

Do you believe that the current Catechism is in error on the death penalty? I don’t think that is correct either.

.

I understand the CCC teaching for what it is… that the DP is a correct form of punishment, but only to be utilized rarely and in cases of extreme gravity. Three and a half thousand convicts on death row (out of a population of 300 million) qualifies as being “used rarely”. And those on death row are hardened, horrific butchers. The crimes they’ve committed would make Stephen King shudder with fear. That would qualify as “extreme gravity”.

I think opposition to the death penalty is a completely acceptable Catholic position

As is being a proponent of the DP.

I don’t see how the bishops are guiding Catholics away from “solid Catholic teaching” on this one.

RLG, their agenda is as transparent as a sliding glass window. They are VERY left-leaning in their pronouncements concerning the DP. And anything even coming close to defending the traditional teaching of The Church is lip-service, at best.

But that’s just my take!

 

[EB4304]

No, it’s not - it depends on the circumstances of the society. In a society without safe and secure prisons, the death penalty isn’t morally evil. But in our society, it is.

 

[Brendan]

No, it’s not - it depends on the circumstances of the society. In a society without safe and secure prisons, the death penalty isn’t morally evil. But in our society, it is.

So your claim is that the US prison system has no violence in it ( safe) and that no one has escaped ( secure)

Do you believe that no inmates have attempted to murder other inmates, or do you believe that inmates do not need to be protected from murders?

 

[Kevin42]

So your claim is that the US prison system has no violence in it ( safe) and that no one has escaped ( secure)

Do you believe that no inmates have attempted to murder other inmates, or do you believe that inmates do not need to be protected from murders?

Although you have not come out and said it, if you are implying that people escape from prisons on a regular basis and that they are unsafe…I find that very difficult to believe.

Also, the 13,000 prisoners is supermax prisons are held in solitary confinement for 22-24 hours a day, which inclines me to believe that they in fact do not pose a realistic threat to other inmates.

 

[SoCalRC]

So your claim is that the US prison system has no violence in it ( safe) and that no one has escaped ( secure)

Do you believe that no inmates have attempted to murder other inmates, or do you believe that inmates do not need to be protected from murders?

A significant percentage of death penalty cases end with life sentences. Further, even condemned prisoners must spend considerable time encarcerated. So prison security must be addressed rather you execute anyone or not.

The question is not rather there is zero risk, but relative risks. We know that there have been hundreds of death penalty convictions overturned on the basis of DNA evidence since it was reinstated roughtly 20 years ago. Further, it is widely acknowledged that there have almost certainly been a number of wrongful executions since reinstatement.

So, we know that the system claims innocent lives. The question is, how large a risk does it mitigate? Based on comparative analysis, none. We are in a very small club among industrialized nations in even having a death penalty and there is zero evidence to suggest that we enjoy any benefit in safety to inmates, guards, or society at large over others.

So it seems a tad dishonest to claim that societal safety is a real concern. Better to acknowledge the very human reaction that some people deserve to die and that we are qualified to judge who that is. I’ve always found it interesting that John Paul II included this teaching in the same encyclical that proclaimed murder, direct abortion, and direct euthanasia as infallible teachings. It is almost as if we are being challenged to accept the underlying principle not only when it is easy (helpless child, beloved elderly family member, etc.), but when it is extremely hard.

 

[rlg94086]

A significant percentage of death penalty cases end with life sentences. Further, even condemned prisoners must spend considerable time encarcerated. So prison security must be addressed rather you execute anyone or not.

The question is not rather there is zero risk, but relative risks. We know that there have been hundreds of death penalty convictions overturned on the basis of DNA evidence since it was reinstated roughtly 20 years ago. Further, it is widely acknowledged that there have almost certainly been a number of wrongful executions since reinstatement.

So, we know that the system claims innocent lives.

Really? Can you name one? “Almost certainly” doesn’t cut it. As someone who is on the fence on this issue, I would be interested in real evidence.

 

[SoCalRC]

Really? Can you name one? “Almost certainly” doesn’t cut it. As someone who is on the fence on this issue, I would be interested in real evidence.

How about Ronnie Chandler, the first person sentenced to death after the 1963 suspension? He was convicted on the evidence of a single witness, who has since recanted, and appears (based on physical evidence) to quite possibly be the real killer. The conviction itself may well yet be overturned.

I didn’t start taking a look at this until I read Evangalium Vitae in the 90’s. I felt compelled to obey the Pope as a Roman Catholic, but was struggling with the teaching. When I last look closely at it a few years ago, there were at least 8 cases with DNA evidence and 3 overturned convictions. Most DP proponent groups put the number at 12-16, opponent groups higher.

It shouldn’t be surprising, by 2002 we’d released 100 death row inmates and are still looking at some massive releases in OK and Penn (evidence of consistant false testimony from state experts and dubious racial practices). If you are innaccurately sentencing that large a percentage of people to death, it is inevitable that you are going to execute some of them.

 

[rlg94086]

How about Ronnie Chandler, the first person sentenced to death after the 1963 suspension? He was convicted on the evidence of a single witness, who has since recanted, and appears (based on physical evidence) to quite possibly be the real killer. The conviction itself may well yet be overturned.

I didn’t start taking a look at this until I read Evangalium Vitae in the 90’s. I felt compelled to obey the Pope as a Roman Catholic, but was struggling with the teaching. When I last look closely at it a few years ago, there were at least 8 cases with DNA evidence and 3 overturned convictions. Most DP proponent groups put the number at 12-16, opponent groups higher.

It shouldn’t be surprising, by 2002 we’d released 100 death row inmates and are still looking at some massive releases in OK and Penn (evidence of consistant false testimony from state experts and dubious racial practices). If you are innaccurately sentencing that large a percentage of people to death, it is inevitable that you are going to execute some of them.

Thanks. I will check it out.

 

[Caveman]

Also, the 13,000 prisoners is supermax prisons are held in solitary confinement for 22-24 hours a day, which inclines me to believe that they in fact do not pose a realistic threat to other inmates.

That’s irrelevant. Where’s the expiation of the sin of murder?