Is the Doctrine of Election Biblical?

[SHW]

I think we agree, God gave faith to believe as a gift as well.

God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth and Jesus died as a ransom for all, so God gives all of us the graces necessary for us to be saved. Not all of us choose to cooperate with His grace and His plan of Salvation for us and so some are lost. 1 Timothy 2:3-6

He forces no one to love Him and obey Him. We all have free will. However, our eternal abode depends on our free will choices while we are on earth.

 

[Nita]

Neither does the Reformed doctrine of predestination do away with one’s exercise of free will.

Is there a way in which Reformed doctrine differs from Catholic doctrine? If so, in what way?

 

[NonCatholic]

Is there a way in which Reformed doctrine differs from Catholic doctrine? If so, in what way?

I will need some time to research that, perhaps others will assist; that’s a great question.

 

[ncgolf]

Logically, that makes no sense. If He predestined some for heaven, then by default the ones He did not chose, go to hell.

Since He is the creator and we are apart of the creation; therefore the creator has control over the whole creation, that is part of being God.

We come to Him by faith and reject Him for unbelief. The faith that brings the chosen to Him is a gift as well, that gift was not bestowed on the one’s that are in unbelief.

Kind of mind boggling. :coolinoff:

These debates seem to hinge on two seemingly opposites … God’s omnipotence and man’s free will.

They do seem to be in conflict, God’s all seeing glaze for God knows all from the beginning to the end of time and God’s gift to man, free will. If God coerces us then we are not sons or daughters we are slaves. Jesus told his disciples there were no longer slaves but friends … true friendship is the willing participation from both sides.

The other is free will …. Does God’s omnipotence somehow diminish our free will? It is either free or not free and if it is not free then we can be held blameless.

I was thinking last night about this conflict and thought there is no conflict … God’s omnipotence is so great that the balance between the two must be perfect. The balance such that our free will is not abused but still God’s ultimate design is yet carried out.

Isaiah 55
7 Let the wicked forsake his way
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
And let him return to the LORD,
And He will have compassion on him,
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.
8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
10 “For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
And do not return there without watering the earth
And making it bear and sprout,
And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
11 So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

The elect do persevere so is the question the ability of one to know his “status” at any one point in time with absolute certainty … I believe we can and should have confidence for God has equipped us …He has not left us on our own.

I can see why if one believes in absolute certainty whether he will be in Heaven or Hell the Catholic sacraments seem absurd. Why would anyone need those spigots of grace when the grace needed for heavenly citizenship has already been granted … you just don’t it yet. It seems the only grace needed is the grace to know your status … all other is superfluous.

 

[NonCatholic]

These debates seem to hinge on two seemingly opposites … God’s omnipotence and man’s free will.

They do seem to be in conflict, God’s all seeing glaze for God knows all from the beginning to the end of time and God’s gift to man, free will. If God coerces us then we are not sons or daughters we are slaves. Jesus told his disciples there were no longer slaves but friends … true friendship is the willing participation from both sides. The Apostles were slave of Christ, which most translations use “bond-servant”, but slave is actually more meaningful. So yes we are slaves of Christ; and that is a good thing because He is a great Master.

The other is free will …. Does God’s omnipotence somehow diminish our free will? It is either free or not free and if it is not free then we can be held blameless. That’s the great paradox…isn’t it? It is both! that is wht it is difficult to wrap our minds around it.

I was thinking last night about this conflict and thought there is no conflict … God’s omnipotence is so great that the balance between the two must be perfect. The balance such that our free will is not abused but still God’s ultimate design is yet carried out. I’m sure God has it reconciled in His mind, but He has the advantage of having an infinite mind.

Isaiah 55
7 Let the wicked forsake his way
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
And let him return to the LORD,
And He will have compassion on him,
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.
8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
10 “For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
And do not return there without watering the earth
And making it bear and sprout,
And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
11 So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

The elect do persevere so is the question the ability of one to know his “status” at any one point in time with absolute certainty … I believe we can and should have confidence for God has equipped us …He has not left us on our own.

I can see why if one believes in absolute certainty whether he will be in Heaven or Hell the Catholic sacraments seem absurd. Why would anyone need those spigots of grace when the grace needed for heavenly citizenship has already been granted … you just don’t it yet. It seems the only grace needed is the grace to know your status … all other is superfluous.

**All I know is that if one is walking according to God’s will; then the Holy Spirit does confirm with one’s spirit that they are part of the elect, as the Bibles says, and there is great security and assurance associated with that.

If one does not know this, there may be a good reason; one being they are not saved and the other is they could be saved; yet not know it because they are not walking according to God’s will as confirmed by the Holy Spirit. Or they could be living in some sin that steals away the blessing of security.

Many will consider what I just said as presumptuous or arrogant, but God tells us He wants us to know and enjoy the peace that comes with it. 2 Peter 1 is a great exposition on this.**/QUOTE]

 

[ncgolf]

That’s the great paradox…isn’t it? It is both! that is wht it is difficult to wrap our minds around it.

I’m glad I am not God …it would give me a headache.

I’m sure God has it reconciled in His mind, but He has the advantage of having an infinite mind.

All I know is that if one is walking according to God’s will; then the Holy Spirit does confirm with one’s spirit that they are part of the elect, as the Bibles says, and there is great security and assurance associated with that.

You will get no argument from me from your testimony.

 

[SHW]

Originally Posted by NonCatholic “All I know is that if one is walking according to God’s will; then the Holy Spirit does confirm with one’s spirit that they are part of the elect, as the Bibles says, and there is great security and assurance associated with that.”

How can a person know that he is walking according to God’s will?

I will start a new thread for this topic.

Blessings to you,
SHW

 

[NonCatholic]

That is Church teaching, not my opinion.

The Church basically teaches that God has elected some for salvation, and in his infinite knowledge knows how those people will respond to the graces he gives them. So he gives those graces to the elect that he knows they will freely respond to that will ensure their salvation.

That does not mean those he did not predestine for heaven are predestined for hell. Rather, he allows them to exercise their free will in their response to the graces he chooses to give them. They, too, can reach salvation, since God never deprives anyone of necessary grace. Why he does it that way, I don’t know, since predestination is a matter of God’s own pleasure.

Perhaps the Church teaching is in error? The son of perdition was preordained to his destiny. Pharaoh was for sure. The Jewish religious leaders were phrophetized they would reject their Christ as part of God plan. I think the Church is in error here.

 

[NonCatholic]

How can a person know that he is walking according to God’s will?

I will start a new thread for this topic.

Blessings to you,
SHW

It is revealed in Scripture what His will for us is…silly. Send me a PM if you start that thread…thanks.

 

[Nita]

Perhaps the Church teaching is in error? The son of perdition was preordained to his destiny. Pharaoh was for sure. The Jewish religious leaders were phrophetized they would reject their Christ as part of God plan. I think the Church is in error here.

Prophecying (foretelling) is not the same thing as predestining.

Foretelling is God revealing what He knows will happen.
Predestining (to reprobation) would be withholding graces so that it would be impossible for the person to choose to accept God, even in his final moments before death.

 

[NonCatholic]

God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth and Jesus died as a ransom for all, so God gives all of us the graces necessary for us to be saved. Not all of us choose to cooperate with His grace and His plan of Salvation for us and so some are lost. 1 Timothy 2:3-6

He forces no one to love Him and obey Him. We all have free will. However, our eternal abode depends on our free will choices while we are on earth.

Now you are slipping away; it is both, but we cannot wrap our minds around it. God said He purposes vessels of wrath and mercy, both created for one destiniation or the other; yet the saved must come by faith and the damned do reject…

 

[SHW]

Perhaps the Church teaching is in error? The son of perdition was preordained to his destiny. Pharaoh was for sure. The Jewish religious leaders were phrophetized they would reject their Christ as part of God plan. I think the Church is in error here.

I disagree with Porthos11 as to what correct church teaching is. God saw the future and saw each action of every person before they were born. Because of this foreknowledge of every action of every person before they were born, they were either predestined to heaven or condemned to hell according to His foreknowledge of all of their actions.

This is why 1 Peter 1:2 states “elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.” “According to” means they were elected (predestined) to eternal life “because of” this knowledge about them (all of their actions while they lived before they lived).

The knowledge about the person came first. The election came second as a result of this knowledge. God did not manipulate their free will actions. He just saw them before they did them.

Find all of the Scripture verses pertaining to a subject, put them all together, and you will get a more clearer picture of the truth about a subject. All of the Scriptures pertaining to a subject are true. Add them all together to get a fuller picture. Oral teaching is the main way that they were taught. Letters (epistles) were supplements to oral teaching in order to further explain a concept for persons who needed more clarity and also to exhort them to remain in the faith so that they would not fall away and be lost.

Romans 8:29 “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

He foreknew them first. Then He predestined them for eternal life (and designated these persons as His elect) because of this knowledge. Our sins condemn us to hell because Jesus judges them. God does not predestine to hell. Predestine is only used in a positive sense in Scripture.

1 Timothy 3:5-7 “(for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.”

Titus 3:10-12 “Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.”

John 3:17 “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”

John 12:47-49 “And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him**—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day**. 49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.”

If you refuse to “receive My words” which means to do the will of the Father and includes obeying God’s commandments and producing good fruit, then you condemn yourself by your disobedience (sins) and you bring judgment upon yourself. (John 14:21-23, Matthew 7:21, Acts 10:35, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8)

Your sins condemn you to hell. God only predestines the righteous.

Blessings to you,
SHW

 

[NonCatholic]

I disagree with Porthos11 as to what correct church teaching is. God saw the future and saw each action of every person before they were born. Because of this foreknowledge of every action of every person before they were born, they were either predestined to heaven or condemned to hell according to His foreknowledge of all of their actions.

This is why 1 Peter 1:2 states “elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.” “According to” means they were elected (predestined) to eternal life “because of” this knowledge about them (all of their actions while they lived before they lived).

The knowledge about the person came first. The election came second as a result of this knowledge. God did not manipulate their free will actions. He just saw them before they did them.

Find all of the Scripture verses pertaining to a subject, put them all together, and you will get a more clearer picture of the truth about a subject. All of the Scriptures pertaining to a subject are true. Add them all together to get a fuller picture. Oral teaching is the main way that they were taught. Letters (epistles) were supplements to oral teaching in order to further explain a concept for persons who needed more clarity and also to exhort them to remain in the faith so that they would not fall away and be lost.

Romans 8:29 “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

He foreknew them first. Then He predestined them for eternal life (and designated these persons as His elect) because of this knowledge. Our sins condemn us to hell because Jesus judges them. God does not predestine to hell. Predestine is only used in a positive sense in Scripture.

1 Timothy 3:5-7 “(for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.”

Titus 3:10-12 “Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.”

John 3:17 “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”

John 12:47-49 “And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him**—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day**. 49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.”

If you refuse to “receive My words” which means to do the will of the Father and includes obeying God’s commandments and producing good fruit, then you condemn yourself by your disobedience (sins) and you bring judgment upon yourself. (John 14:21-23, Matthew 7:21, Acts 10:35, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8)

Your sins condemn you to hell. God only predestines the righteous.

Blessings to you,
SHW

I believe foreknowledge and predestination would have happened at the same time since it came from eternity past. Can anyone grasp this in their finite mind? I love God’s word!!

 

[NonCatholic]

Prophecying (foretelling) is not the same thing as predestining.

Foretelling is God revealing what He knows will happen.
Predestining (to reprobation) would be withholding graces so that it would be impossible for the person to choose to accept God, even in his final moments before death.

So Nita, what came first…God’s foreknowledge or predestination…I believe they have to both be at the same time, before time, which is eternity past.

 

[SHW]

Now you are slipping away; it is both, but we cannot wrap our minds around it. God said He purposes vessels of wrath and mercy, both created for one destiniation or the other; yet the saved must come by faith and the damned do reject…

God desires all men to be saved. This is His purpose for us. He wants all of us to live eternally in heaven with Him.

Romans 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

His will is worked in us when we love Him (do His will). (Matthew 7:21)

2 Timothy 1:8-10 “Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,”

God decided to save us when He saw in His foreknowledge, before the foundation of the world that when He created Adam, that Adam was going to sin. Adam’s sin would alienate us from God and we would be His enemies because of this sin. Adam ate of the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (Genesis 2:17). The punishment for this sin is death and loss of fellowship with God. It is a generational sin which affects all progeny. (Romans 5)

God decided to send His Son to redeem us because He loved His creation (us) and desired to provide a way (plan of salvation) for all of us to be saved (reconciled to Him and live with Him in heaven for eternity). This decision to provide a way for our salvation was not based on any works that we could do ourselves, because none of our own works could ever atone for Adam’s first (Original) sin.

This decision to redeem us was made solely because He loved us. He called us, not because of any works that we could do since none of our works could ever atone for Adam’s sin, but He called us because He loved us and wanted to provide a way for us to be reconciled to Him if we cooperated with His plan (purpose of) Salvation for us, which includes obeying His commandments and producing good fruit.

There was no way that we could regain our fellowship with Him through our own sacrifices to Him because none of our actions could ever be perfect since we had fallen from grace through Adam’s sin. Imperfect people cannot offer perfect sacrifices. Only a Mediator, God’s only Son, could restore our relationship with God which Adam lost for us. In order for His Son to restore our relationship with God, He had to become human also, so that He (as Jesus) could offer a perfect sacrifice of Himself to His Father.

Only a perfect sacrifice could atone for Adam’s sin. Only Jesus could present a perfect sacrifice to His Father because only Jesus is Holy and perfect and only Jesus can act as a Mediator between God and Man because only Jesus is BOTH God AND Man.

Romans 9:16-24 “So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.”

God desires to show His power in all of us so that His name may be declared in all the earth. He chose to have mercy on the Israelites. They did not deserve His mercy. Jealousy, etc. of the chosen Israelites hardens many hearts of the non-chosen such as Pharaoh. The goodness of God towards the Israelites hardens Pharaoh’s heart.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"

God wills to give people different gifts. They are not all equal. He is the Creator and chooses gifts for each of us. We should not question His choices for us. But we can know that He is love and He is just and He therefore gives each of us what is best for us to help us to come to the knowledge of the truth and to be saved so that we can enjoy eternal life with Him in heaven.

continued…

 

[NonCatholic]

God desires all men to be saved. This is His purpose for us. He wants all of us to live eternally in heaven with Him.

Romans 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

His will is worked in us when we love Him (do His will). (Matthew 7:21)

2 Timothy 1:8-10 “Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,”

God decided to save us when He saw in His foreknowledge, before the foundation of the world that when He created Adam, that Adam was going to sin. Adam’s sin would alienate us from God and we would be His enemies because of this sin. Adam ate of the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (Genesis 2:17). The punishment for this sin is death and loss of fellowship with God. It is a generational sin which affects all progeny. (Romans 5)

God decided to send His Son to redeem us because He loved His creation (us) and desired to provide a way (plan of salvation) for all of us to be saved (reconciled to Him and live with Him in heaven for eternity). This decision to provide a way for our salvation was not based on any works that we could do ourselves, because none of our own works could ever atone for Adam’s first (Original) sin.

This decision to redeem us was made solely because He loved us. He called us, not because of any works that we could do since none of our works could ever atone for Adam’s sin, but He called us because He loved us and wanted to provide a way for us to be reconciled to Him if we cooperated with His plan (purpose of) Salvation for us, which includes obeying His commandments and producing good fruit.

There was no way that we could regain our fellowship with Him through our own sacrifices to Him because none of our actions could ever be perfect since we had fallen from grace through Adam’s sin. Imperfect people cannot offer perfect sacrifices. Only a Mediator, God’s only Son, could restore our relationship with God which Adam lost for us. In order for His Son to restore our relationship with God, He had to become human also, so that He (as Jesus) could offer a perfect sacrifice of Himself to His Father.

Only a perfect sacrifice could atone for Adam’s sin. Only Jesus could present a perfect sacrifice to His Father because only Jesus is Holy and perfect and only Jesus can act as a Mediator between God and Man because only Jesus is BOTH God AND Man.

Romans 9:16-24 “So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.”

God desires to show His power in all of us so that His name may be declared in all the earth. He chose to have mercy on the Israelites. They did not deserve His mercy. Jealousy, etc. of the chosen Israelites hardens many hearts of the non-chosen such as Pharaoh. The goodness of God towards the Israelites hardens Pharaoh’s heart.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"

God wills to give people different gifts. They are not all equal. He is the Creator and chooses gifts for each of us. We should not question His choices for us. But we can know that He is love and He is just and He therefore gives each of us what is best for us to help us to come to the knowledge of the truth and to be saved so that we can enjoy eternal life with Him in heaven.

continued…

Every once in a while, I see a Catholic that seems to get it; I believe you may just be one of them…I’m thankful to God for that. Peace!

 

[SHW]

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As He says also in Hosea: “I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved.” 26 And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people’ There they shall be called sons of the living God.” 27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved.”

The Jews do not like the idea that God has also chosen the Gentiles. (However there would have been no Gentiles if Adam had not sinned. Everyone would have remained in fellowship with God and we would not have needed a Savior.) The Jews rejected Jesus so the Gentiles were also called. However, God foresaw all of this in His foreknowledge before He created the world so it was God’s plan to provide a way for salvation for all people whether Jew or non-Jew.

“What if” Paul is trying to explain that it is none of our business to question whom God saves. We should be only concerned with doing God’s will and producing good fruits (helping others, etc.) so that we will be saved.

Vessels of wrath are those persons who do not cooperate with God’s plan of salvation (His mercy) and so they bring judgment upon themselves and are condemned to hell. Vessels of mercy are those persons who do God’s will (take advantage of and cooperate with His mercy) and are thereby saved and predestined as “elect.”

God prepared the vessels, the vessels using their own free wills become either vessels of mercy or vessels of wrath. Only the vessels of mercy attain glory.

Blessings to you,
SHW

 

[SHW]

I believe foreknowledge and predestination would have happened at the same time since it came from eternity past. Can anyone grasp this in their finite mind? I love God’s word!!

We are predestined according to the foreknowledge of God. Because of His foreknowledge about us, He either predestines us for eternal life or we are condemned to hell by our sins. Foreknowledge comes first.

Blessings to you,
SHW

 

[SHW]

Every once in a while, I see a Catholic that seems to get it; I believe you may just be one of them…I’m thankful to God for that. Peace!

Peace to you, too.

Next comes the part that we will probably disagree about.

How do we personally receive God’s free gift of Salvation which was made possible for us by Jesus’ sacrificial death on the cross?

Jesus states that we must believe in Him (John 3:16). Scripture also says that we must be baptized in order to actually wash away our sins (Acts 22:16). (1 Corinthians 6:11) explains that baptism sanctifies us.

We are made holy by Baptism because it washes away our sins and we are now in fellowship with God and the Holy Spirit moves into our souls.

1 Corinthians 6:19 “Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?”

We must cooperate with the Holy Spirit’s grace in our souls in order to remain holy.

Romans 8:13 “For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.”

What if we sin grievous sins after we are saved?

1 Corinthians 3:17 “If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.” (cf. Hebrews 10:26-27)

(Romans 11:22) states that we must continue in God’s goodness/kindness in order to continue to be saved. If we do not continue, then we will be cut off (damned).

How long must we continue in His kindness? (Matthew 10:22) states that we must endure to end of our lives in His kindness in order to be saved.

How do we remain/continue in God’s kindness?
By obeying God’s commandments and doing God’s will according to Matthew 19:17, 1 Corinthians 7:19, 1 John 2:3-5, 1 John 5:3, and Matthew 7:21.

Romans 5:8-11 “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.”

How are we “much more saved by His life” after our reconciliation with God?"

We imitate/follow Jesus by obeying His commandments and doing the will of His Father. Jesus shows us, by example, what to do in order for us to inherit eternal life.

Ephesians 5:1 “Therefore be imitators of God as dear children.”

John 5:30 “I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.”

Matthew 12:50 "For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

What if we sin grievously after our Baptism? Is there a way to be reconciled again?

Ezekiel 33:12-20 "Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live (inherit eternal life) because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’ 13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die (be damned). 14 Again, when I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of his sins which he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17 “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair! 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it. 19 But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it. 20 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways.”

1 John 2:1 “My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.”

If we confess our sins and repent and do works worthy of repentance, we will again be saved (Matthew 3:8, 2 Timothy 2:20-26)

Blessings to you,
SHW

 

[Nita]

So Nita, what came first…God’s foreknowledge or predestination…I believe they have to both be at the same time, before time, which is eternity past.

What does timing have to do with it - especially since linear time does not exist in eternity. My post was not about when foreknowledge and predestining occur but about the fact that they are two different things. God can foretell something without predestining it.