H
Holly3278
Guest
Hey everyone. I have a question. Is the entire Trinity omnipresent or is it only one or two of the Persons of the Most Holy Trinity who are omnipresent? Thank you in advance for your help.
- Status
A
andy92
Guest
The Trinity is Consubstantial mean they are of the same substance, if one person of the Trinity is then all persons are. and we believe as Catholics that God is omnipresent.
We believe this because we believe God is Eternal or dwells outside of time and space so thus can be omnipresent.
We believe this because we believe God is Eternal or dwells outside of time and space so thus can be omnipresent.
T
Theophorus
Guest
God in his entirety(Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is omnipresent.
Otherwise we introduce introduce limitations and potentials into persons of the Trinity in such a way as they would no longer be the supreme Being we call God.
For instance if we were to say the Spirit was omnipresent but the Son were not, we could no longer say they were equally God. To say that the Glorified Christ has potential to move from one place to another would limit Him in such a way as we could no longer consider Him as God at all, as the Spirit would be a more perfect being than Him.
Otherwise we introduce introduce limitations and potentials into persons of the Trinity in such a way as they would no longer be the supreme Being we call God.
For instance if we were to say the Spirit was omnipresent but the Son were not, we could no longer say they were equally God. To say that the Glorified Christ has potential to move from one place to another would limit Him in such a way as we could no longer consider Him as God at all, as the Spirit would be a more perfect being than Him.
F
FrancisBenedict
Guest
God is all three in One. God is omnipresent and right with you now, this very minute.
“The kingdom of God is within you.”
“I am with you always even to the end of time.”
Pax vobiscum+
“The kingdom of God is within you.”
“I am with you always even to the end of time.”
Pax vobiscum+
meltzerboy
New member
But you do believe the three Persons of the Trinity have different functions or roles, so that G-d the Father could not have the exact same function as the Savior? If that is so, what is the function of the Holy Spirit, which neither G-d the Father nor G-d the Son possesses?
F
FrancisBenedict
Guest
Read this to answer your question:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c3a8.htm
Pax vobiscum+
meltzerboy
New member
Thank you for the link to the CCC.
T
Theophorus
Guest
We can’t speak of God in such terms, we don’t fracture the Divine will into three separate functions. There is one Divine will communicated by the persons of the trinity. To use philosophical language, the Three persons are distinct one from the other only by the three relations which are mutually opposed (paternity, and filiation, and passive spiration), all else in God is identical. Only in this sense(God as Father, God as Son, and God as Holy Spirit, but Father is neither Son nor Holy spirit, etc. as in the “shield of the Trinity”) can we speak of roles/functions in God.
The whole work of creation and grace is a single operation common to all three divine persons, who at the same time operate according to their unique properties, so that all things are from the Father, through the Son and in the Holy Spirit.
H
Holly3278
Guest
Thank you very much Theophorus for this explanation. Your explanation is the one out of all the explanations that helped me the most.
I also want to thank everyone else who helped to answer my question. I don’t know how to explain it but it was Theophorus’ explanation that I understood the best. Nevertheless, I still want to thank everyone for the explanations and answers.
S
Skye_Ariel
Guest
Yes, all 3 are 1 so the whole Trinity is omnipresent.
M
mhmtas
Guest
God is eternal and omnipresent. Act and being revealed of God( Catholics say Holy Spirit as a another God but there is no such a God because that kind God did not declare his presence by divine inspiration) is omnipresent too. And Son (Jesus) is not omnipresent because he is a humanbeing. But Soul of Humanbeing ( God gave a holy spirit to Jesus and to all humanbeing) is eternal by God’s act and power. İf God backout his act and power all things (so souls) will dissolve and disappear.
A
aemcpa
Guest
There is only one God, Who is entirely indivisible.
A
aemcpa
Guest
This sounds problematic, as if you are saying that Christ’s human nature limits Him and makes him less than God. Christ’s human nature is completely distinct from His divine nature, and his human nature IS limited, but that doesn’t mean that “we can no longer consider Him as God”.
T
Theophorus
Guest
I agree,to a point.
The two natures are distinct but not entirely separate(Cf. Chalcedon: In Christ there are two natures; each retaining its own properties, and together united in one subsistence and in one single person, consubstantial with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood). The Son, considered in his Divinity, is not limited in anyway.
However this takes us into Incarnational Theology, Christ’s emptying of himself as per Philippians, and the role of the Hypostatic union, and I’m not qualified to speculate on the limitations, or otherwise, of his post-resurrection human nature and body.
G
Goya
Guest
First, it is an excellent question.
Second, it is a very challenging question–it oughtn’t be dismissed, as something simplistic.
Third, in response to the temptation to dismiss this query simplically–I submit that to summarily answer that all three persons are omnipresent, fails to address a few obvious concerns (just a small few that jump front and center):
e.g.–"…whereever 2 or more are gathered in my name, there shall I be".
If all three persons of the Trinity are omnipresent, what need or point would there be, for anyone to gather in “His” name?
e.g.2–The Holy Eucharist and the Real Presence:
If all three persons of the Trinity are omnipresent, what need, purpose or point is there, of ‘the Real Presence’ in the Eucharist?
e.g.3–“But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go: for if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.after I have departed from you, I shall send you to you a praclete”. (John 16:7).
If all three persons of the Trinity are omnipresent, what need, point or purpose would there be for Christ to send ‘the Paraclete’–after HE departed?
While summarily answering it in the negative, poses questions concerning the uniformity/unity of the Holy Trinity.
I’m not trying to be difficult, just ‘real’. When St. Patrick is said to have explained the Trinity by comparing it to a clover leaf–or whomever came up with the water/ice/steam analogy–I can’t help but thinking back to St. Augustine, and his 1,000+ page tome ‘On the Trinity’–in which he (he of a legendarliy brilliant philosophical mind…) wrestles with the Trinity–manages to shed some light on its nature–but doesn’t really ever ‘nail’ it down. He doesn’t even make any pretense to being able to do so. He basically prays to the Lord to give him some guidance, and compares it to attempting to fit the ocean into hole on the beach, dug by a child…
Point being–take whatever understanding you can of the Trinity, for your faith to remain ‘functional’; but don’t drive yourself insane, by attempting to comprehend the imcomprehensible; and don’t pretend that that the granduer and mystery of God, can resolved, or understood at all, by us mere mortal types–let alone by anything that could come close to fitting into a message board thread.
Bottom line: the answer to your question is quite simply, a mystery. We don’t know if the 3 persons are omipresent. If they are, we don’t know how. If not, we don’t know how one person of the Trinity can be said to be omnipresent, but not another. That doesn’t mean it’s not worth wrestling, contemplating, meditating, praying…but it does mean that such ‘quest’ or inquiry, requires humility above all, and perhaps acknowleding up front, that even the greatest amongst us, lacks the mental capacity to grasping the nature of the Trinity (or even coming close to grasping it).
Second, it is a very challenging question–it oughtn’t be dismissed, as something simplistic.
Third, in response to the temptation to dismiss this query simplically–I submit that to summarily answer that all three persons are omnipresent, fails to address a few obvious concerns (just a small few that jump front and center):
e.g.–"…whereever 2 or more are gathered in my name, there shall I be".
If all three persons of the Trinity are omnipresent, what need or point would there be, for anyone to gather in “His” name?
e.g.2–The Holy Eucharist and the Real Presence:
If all three persons of the Trinity are omnipresent, what need, purpose or point is there, of ‘the Real Presence’ in the Eucharist?
e.g.3–“But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go: for if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.after I have departed from you, I shall send you to you a praclete”. (John 16:7).
If all three persons of the Trinity are omnipresent, what need, point or purpose would there be for Christ to send ‘the Paraclete’–after HE departed?
While summarily answering it in the negative, poses questions concerning the uniformity/unity of the Holy Trinity.
I’m not trying to be difficult, just ‘real’. When St. Patrick is said to have explained the Trinity by comparing it to a clover leaf–or whomever came up with the water/ice/steam analogy–I can’t help but thinking back to St. Augustine, and his 1,000+ page tome ‘On the Trinity’–in which he (he of a legendarliy brilliant philosophical mind…) wrestles with the Trinity–manages to shed some light on its nature–but doesn’t really ever ‘nail’ it down. He doesn’t even make any pretense to being able to do so. He basically prays to the Lord to give him some guidance, and compares it to attempting to fit the ocean into hole on the beach, dug by a child…
Point being–take whatever understanding you can of the Trinity, for your faith to remain ‘functional’; but don’t drive yourself insane, by attempting to comprehend the imcomprehensible; and don’t pretend that that the granduer and mystery of God, can resolved, or understood at all, by us mere mortal types–let alone by anything that could come close to fitting into a message board thread.
Bottom line: the answer to your question is quite simply, a mystery. We don’t know if the 3 persons are omipresent. If they are, we don’t know how. If not, we don’t know how one person of the Trinity can be said to be omnipresent, but not another. That doesn’t mean it’s not worth wrestling, contemplating, meditating, praying…but it does mean that such ‘quest’ or inquiry, requires humility above all, and perhaps acknowleding up front, that even the greatest amongst us, lacks the mental capacity to grasping the nature of the Trinity (or even coming close to grasping it).
T
Theophorus
Guest
Firstly I think you are confusing the modes of Gods self-revelation with the notion of omnipresence.
Secondly, we know that if only some persons of the Trinity were to have the Divine attribute of omnipresence, then the distinction between the persons would no longer be differing relations(Father, Son and Spirit) but differing perfections, which would be impossible, and logicaly contradictory. Since God is the most perfect being, only the person(s) of the Trinity most fully in act with respect to divine perfection would be God, the other(s) would be lesser beings of some sort, but certianly not God. You would no longer have a Triune God but 3 beings of varying perfections, and since the Trinity is a fact of Revelation we know it must exist, ergo omniprescence must apply to the divinity of each person in the Trinity equally and fully.
meltzerboy
New member
Yes, I realize the three persons of the Trinity are distinct but not separate. Thank you for this description, and now I have a further question. When you say the distinctiveness of the persons are relational and they operate “according to their unique properties,” what do you mean by the term “properties”? That is, are the unique properties relational only?
T
Theophorus
Guest
Yes, essentially that is the case, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another. We believe that every external operation of God is due to the whole Trinity, and cannot properly be attributed to one Person alone (the concept of Appropriation in the Trinity may be of interest here: newadvent.org/cathen/01658a.htm)
We must be careful to emphasise here(not just in relation to your question but in general) that the divine persons are really distinct from one another and each is fully the divine substance. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, they are really distinct from one another by virtue of their relations of origin: “It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds.” Now all this occurs eternally and so, the divine being is Triune.
I hope this is of help.
G
Goya
Guest
You seem to enjoy wrestling with trinitarian matters; pesonally, it gives me fits. (I trudged through most of St. Augustine’s On the Trinity, and all but found myself even more confused…). So, rather than attempting to rebut your assertions, or the like–perhaps I could tap that fertile intellect of yours, for some light–as you seem to enjoy this stuff
…so:- What does ‘omnipresence’ mean, that I apparently got it wrong?
- What is the significance of the Real Presence in the Eucharist, in light of omnipresence, applied to the entire Trinity?
- What was point/purpose/need of the Paraclete, in light of same? (seems a bit redundant to my humble intellect).
- …and what was Christ talking about being present, when 2 or more are gathered together, if He is ‘omnipresent’ along with the remaining persons of the Trinity? (Again…beyond my pay-grade…over my head…).
S
Skye_Ariel
Guest
Think of it like this, we have a soul, spirit and a body. All 3 parts make up 1 person, who we are. Our spirit has a purpose, our soul has a purpose and our body has a purpose. God has 3 parts, all 3 are 1, but all 3 are distinct persons. That’s how we are made in His image. Another way to think of it is, that you can be an aunt, a mother and a sister to someone. All three titles make up one person but all three titles have a different function. You’re a different person to your niece or nephew than you are to your children or your brother or sister. It’s kind of like that, but all 3 persons of the Trinity are distinct persons but still one at the same time. Maybe that helps.
Another way to think of it is, that you can be an aunt, a mother and a sister to someone. All three titles make up one person but all three titles have a different function. You’re a different person to your niece or nephew than you are to your children or your brother or sister. It’s kind of like that, but all 3 persons of the Trinity are distinct persons but still one at the same time. Maybe that helps. - Status