Is The Evangelical Jesus same with The Catholic Jesus?

[PIR1000]

marko_pasa, I agree with you that the doctrinal differences between Protestants and Catholics are very important. I think that they can and have damned souls. I think that they still do, though certainly not always (“invincible ignorance”).

Yes. This “invincible ignorance” applies to many of the followers, as the Lord will judge based upon their personal level of accountability. It does not, however, extend to the teachers who lead people astray. By their position of being teachers, they are claiming to have knowledge and understanding, and they will be judged as if they did. But they are leading people away from the Truth. Many of them are even innoculating their followers against the Truth.

 

[5pintLutheran]

Well, a couple of things…

When you apply the term “mother of God”, then are you saying that Mary is the mother of the Holy Trinity? Since Christ is one with the Father as well as the Holy Spirit, then saying “mary mother of God” would be implying that Mary gave birth to the Trinity, therefore she existed BEFORE the eternal God, which is a contradiction.

Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ, son of God, being one with the Father. She gave Jesus his human nature, but Jesus has always existed as the Divine.

 

[saylo]

Well, a couple of things…

When you apply the term “mother of God”, then are you saying that Mary is the mother of the Holy Trinity? Since Christ is one with the Father as well as the Holy Spirit, then saying “mary mother of God” would be implying that Mary gave birth to the Trinity, therefore she existed BEFORE the eternal God, which is a contradiction.

Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ, son of God, being one with the Father. She gave Jesus his human nature, but Jesus has always existed as the Divine.

Mary is from whom Jesus (the Word) derived His carnal being. . Jesus is God before time began…He is the “Word” made flesh. We cannot fully fathom this combination but we believe nonetheless.

Would you say then that Jesus, in His human form, is NOT God? The Son of God and the Son of Mary. Both. His human nature contains his Godly essence.

 

[5pintLutheran]

Mary is from whom Jesus (the Word) derived His carnal being. . Jesus is God before time began…He is the “Word” made flesh. We cannot fully fathom this combination but we believe nonetheless.

Would you say then that Jesus, in His human form, is NOT God? The Son of God and the Son of Mary. Both. His human nature contains his Godly essence.

Let me simplify:
As I said before… Mary IS the mother of Jesus, but Jesus alone. (If she was a perpetual virgin, then it needs to be discussed on another discussion) I agree with you fully in your first paragraph. Yes, Christ is BOTH Son of God and Son of Mary, but Mary does not give him his DIVINE essence. Jesus’ divinity was not given to him from Mary. Begotten from the Father, not begotten from Mary.
I agree that Christ is both fully God and fully man, and is one with the Father. I’m just saying that… Technically, yes… Mary is the mother of God, but only Christ the Son. Even then, she gave him his human essence. :tiphat:

 

[saylo]

Let me simplify:
As I said before… Mary IS the mother of Jesus, but Jesus alone. (If she was a perpetual virgin, then it needs to be discussed on another discussion) I agree with you fully in your first paragraph. Yes, Christ is BOTH Son of God and Son of Mary, but Mary does not give him his DIVINE essence. Jesus’ divinity was not given to him from Mary. Begotten from the Father, not begotten from Mary.
I agree that Christ is both fully God and fully man, and is one with the Father. I’m just saying that… Technically, yes… Mary is the mother of God, but only Christ the Son. Even then, she gave him his human essence. :tiphat:

Is the Risen Christ God? He rose from the dead with the Body He had before the crucifixion.

Remember the passage (before His crucifixion) while He was still in His carnal/son of mary state.

He asked, “…who do men say that I am?”

One disciple answered, 'John the Baptist" … but Jesus asked again “…but who do YOU say that I am?”

Peter answered, “You are the Christ…the Son of the Living God.”

When He comes to judge the living and the dead He will appear as flesh and bone, albeit “Glorified.”

When Jesus (as man) calmed the sea-storm His disciples asked among themselves, '…What manner of man is this that even the wind and sea obey Him?"

 

[Henning]

Mary…a daughter of Abraham…

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them
verily verily I say unto you
before Abraham was I am

so that…
before Mary was, Jesus is I AM…???
-or is it-
before Jesus is I AM, Mary was…???

I dunno…as a new Christian veering toward Catholicsm I find that the doctrine of the Theotokos is hard to grasp. Jesus though is beyond my inability to grasp things about his mom.

God’s Mary is very special

 

[5pintLutheran]

Is the Risen Christ God? He rose from the dead with the Body He had before the crucifixion.

Remember the passage (before His crucifixion) while He was still in His carnal/son of mary state.

He asked, “…who do men say that I am?”

One disciple answered, 'John the Baptist" … but Jesus asked again “…but who do YOU say that I am?”

Peter answered, “You are the Christ…the Son of the Living God.”

When He comes to judge the living and the dead He will appear as flesh and bone, albeit “Glorified.”

When Jesus (as man) calmed the sea-storm His disciples asked among themselves, '…What manner of man is this that even the wind and sea obey Him?"

Let me try once again… Yes, Jesus is God. God is 3 person, but all are the Godhead (3 persons, one God). Mary did indeed give birth to Jesus Christ, and he is God… but she did not create the Trinity. In order to do that, she would have existed before the Holy Trinity.

Christ is one with the Father, but Mary didn’t give birth to the Father. Christ existed before time and space existed, along with the Father, and the Spirit. Mary, I believe, only gave Christ his HUMAN essence. So, yes, Mary is the mother of God, but she didn’t create God, only served as a vessel for the Divine to come into creation.

 

[saylo]

When St. Patrick came to Ireland the people worshipped a kind of “Sun god.”

Aftr a time the people could not grasp that the Cross symbolized God/Salvation.

So what did St. Patrick do? He fashioned a cross and placed a cicle (symbolizing the Sun) at the center of the crossmembers…he “incorporated” the Cross and the Sun…today, it is known as the “Celtic Cross.”

At another occasion the people could not fathom (Three Divine Pesons in One God–we have trouble understanding that today). So, again, St. Patrick picked up a shamrock and held it up as a graphic of the Trinity. One shamrock–Three leaves.

 

[quirkysmart]

I want to challenge both Evangelicals (I am not sure if Evangelicals are truly and fully Protestants, never mind if they are Christians) and Catholics…

We all know that Evangelical Jesus WAS NOT BORN of the SAME and ONE mother with Roman Catholic Jesus, although their mothers share the same name; Mary… It doesn’t take a theologian to know that The Evangelical Jesus’ mother IS NOT and HAVE NEVER BEEN The Mother of God! She is the mother of just a human being, or at best she is just and only the mother of His human nature but never His Divine nature. Because God can not have a mother…

At this point it becomes fuzzy and unclear if Evangelicals really and sincerely believe that His human and divine natures have perfectly and really united in His human body?? Do they sincerely believe that Jesus’ Divinity really and truly INCARNATED in Mary’s womb ?? (“The Word became flesh” John 1:14)

If what was born of Mary was just a HUMAN NATURE, howcome that HUMAN NATURE alone can possibly save us from our sins on the cross?? No matter how much righteous he was, can the death of “just a human being” on the cross is worthy enough to SAVE all humanity from his sins?? (Are Evangelicals really SAVED by the way??)

See ?? We are not even quite sure if Evangelical Jesus qualifies enough to be A Saviour… If He is, then which one ?? The Human Nature One?? Or the Divine One (who never had a mother since He doesn’t need one) ??

Furthermore Evangelical Jesus -with one side of his mouth- says “This Is My Body and This Is My Blood”, while with the other side of his mouth he says “Not really so !!”… And you can never make sure what on earth he really mean while he is saying “You have to be born of WATER and SPIRIT.”

Unlike Evangelical Jesus, Roman Catholic Jesus is true to His Words. He means what He says, and He says what He really means… However Evangelical Jesus is not so…

Therefore;

*Evangelical Jesus’ mother IS NOT the MOTHER of GOD…

*We are not quite sure if HUMAN and DIVINE natures of Evangelical Jesus is truly unified in ONE PERSON…

*Evangelical Jesus is quite confused about what he says and what he means…

*Furthermore Evangelical Jesus’ mother WAS NOT IMMACULATELY CONCEIVED…

And if so how in heavens are we ever able to make sure his mother didn’t pass her sinful nature on her HUMAN NATURE baby ??

We hope that Evangelical Jesus didn’t inherit the ORIGINAL SIN from his mother.

If he didn’t, howcome we say that he was really incarnated without inheriting from his mother from whom he was supposed to be incarnated ??

What about you my friend ??

Who do you think that Jesus is ??

Can Roman Catholic Jesus and Evangelical Jesus possibly be the same Divine Person ??

If not, who do you think that this Evangelical Jesus is ??

And what kind of spirit can ever preach an Evangelical Jesus ??

And whose spirit is that ??

And how can you recognize that spirit ??

Go ahead and read I John 4:2-3 and find out what kind of a spirit is an evangelical spirit…

 

[Dennis_Ramos]

This may be a late reply being august 2, 2008 , But let me just share with all viewers one sure thing , studying at both a catholic seminary and evangelical school at one time (Bible Institute) , I have to add that it is the same Jesus , with different interpretations , and further more ignorance seems to fall into religion , be it catholic , protestant , evangelicals and so forth , The Catholic Interpretation originated in Jerusalem , Antioch , Rome , Athens , and all of the Middle East.
Christ is Identified in The Apostles Creed , written by the Church Fathers East and West , they had the same problems with the arians and the nestorians , so this goes on and on with the Blessed Mother of All Christians , I had to deal with ignorance on both sides.
the gospel of St.John Chapter 1 (In the begininng was the Word )
G+D the Father , The Son , The Holy Spirit, Pure Catholic Doctrine.
Eastern ,Western , WorldWide , 33AD , Let us resolve the issue.
it is not about division , or unification , it is about the defense of doctrine , and elimination of heresy!!!

 

[Axion]

This may be a late reply being august 2, 2008 , But let me just share with all viewers one sure thing , studying at both a catholic seminary and evangelical school at one time (Bible Institute) , I have to add that it is the same Jesus , with different interpretations , and further more ignorance seems to fall into religion , be it catholic , protestant , evangelicals and so forth , The Catholic Interpretation originated in Jerusalem , Antioch , Rome , Athens , and all of the Middle East.
Christ is Identified in The Apostles Creed , written by the Church Fathers East and West , they had the same problems with the arians and the nestorians , so this goes on and on with the Blessed Mother of All Christians , I had to deal with ignorance on both sides.
the gospel of St.John Chapter 1 (In the begininng was the Word )
G+D the Father , The Son , The Holy Spirit, Pure Catholic Doctrine.
Eastern ,Western , WorldWide , 33AD , Let us resolve the issue.
it is not about division , or unification , it is about the defense of doctrine , and elimination of heresy!!!

The poster is not saying there literally ARE two Jesus’s. What he is saying, with some justification is that many evangelical anti-Catholics TEACH a different Jesus to that taught by the Christian Church down the Ages.

Many evangelicals deny that Jesus is true son of Mary. When pressed they will say that Mary was just a “vessel” in which Jesus came down to us, or that she gave little or nothing to Jesus. This would create a Jesus who was not really and wholly human. For if he is not the real son of Mary, He is not a descendant of Adam or of David either. Their Jesus is a gnostic counterfeit, someone who looks human, but isn’t really.

Others, while admitting that Jesus took his body from Mary, say that there was somehow both a human Jesus, who was son of Mary, and a Divine Jesus, who wasn’t and isn’t, and doesn’t owe her any motherly honour. This of course creates, two different Jesuses. (Nestorianism) Which one died on the cross? And how is this of benefit to humans if it was not a human who took upon him the sins of humanity and rose from the dead?

Insisting that Mary was a sinner, as many evangelicals do, would mean that she must have passed her sinful human nature (she had no other) on to Jesus. This either makes Jesus the possessor of a sinful nature, or else again denies that he took full humanity from her.

In addition many evangelicals do not seem to accept the Jesus who taught people to live lives of service and love for one another so that they might attain the Kingdonm of Heaven. The Jesus they teach has no interest in this. He is only concerned over whether or not people had an empotional experience at an evangelical meeting.

For others evangelicals, Jesus’s message of love is irrelevant. Jesus did not die for everyone. For them, the only thing that matters is whether their capricious God randomly selected you for either bliss or eternal torment at the beginning of time. Their Jesus is a little bit of an irrelevance to this.

 

[saylo]

As I observe evangelicals almost all of the time on “Inspirational TV” they all shout at the top of their voices. It seems that the louder the shouting the MORE convincing they think they are.

Evangelicals spring up all the time. They remind me of those days when “traveling revivals” pitch a circus tent outside the perimeters of a city or town. They draw the “unchurched” and put on a circus sideshow replete with “cures” and “halleluiahs!”

After they leave the town the “unchurched” are even more unchurched than before.

Those traveling “churches” do not last but a short while because there is no foundation…it’s built on sand and fakery.

 

[Dennis_Ramos]

Maybe i did not make myself clear , you see i had to study world religions and christianity /catholic/protestant/evangelical non-denominational groups , it was a research project , but in reality there are some evangelicals who promote the wrong doctrine on Jesus , Mary , his divinity etc. , but in defense there are many that are somewhat leaning toward the catholic teaching on this matter.
They don’t share the liturgical worship , but in doctrine they do share the same concept. I was not trying to defend evangelicals , but i do believe that in spite of our differences , we can share our viewpoints and try to resolve the matter in scripture , liturgy and faith.
I stand on the Catholic Doctrine of the Faith , but i deal with plenty of evangelicals on friendly debates regarding this matter , I am at peace with myself , and i pray for those that do not understand this concept. Judging from past incidents on the matter , i think that the situation resulted in matters of misunderstanding and i know that the Lord is merciful , and compassionate , because he died for our sins , when Pope Benedict visited new york city , he opened up his arms in loving compassion to all of the denominations and evangelicals of various churches , regardless of the matter on the evangelical or catholic Jesus Christ.
Patrick Madrid has a book called where is that in the bible ?

 

[saylo]

This thread has no avenues on which to expand since you made clear the differences and the similarities. What more can any of us say? For me, at least, your outline above leaves no further exploration.

 

[packermann]

And if so how in heavens are we ever able to make sure his mother didn’t pass her sinful nature on her HUMAN NATURE baby ??

If Mary’s sinlessness was necessary so that Jesus would be sinless, then Mary’s mother would have had to be sinless to ensure that Mary was sinless. And the same would have to be for Mary’s mother’s mother. And so on, and so on.

Mary’s sinlessness does not ensure anything. God is all powerfull, He could have His Son born of a sinful woman if He wanted to.

Instead, I would argue this way. God is holy, and cannot stand to be in the presence of sin. Since He cannot stand to be in the presence of sin, it is fitting that He made sure that the vessel that would bear Him for 9 months would be holy and pure. So the sinlessness of Mary shows us how holy God is.

 

[saylo]

If Mary’s sinlessness was necessary so that Jesus would be sinless, then Mary’s mother would have had to be sinless to ensure that Mary was sinless. And the same would have to be for Mary’s mother’s mother. And so on, and so on.

Mary’s sinlessness does not ensure anything. God is all powerfull, He could have His Son born of a sinful woman if He wanted to.

Instead, I would argue this way. God is holy, and cannot stand to be in the presence of sin. Since He cannot stand to be in the presence of sin, it is fitting that He made sure that the vessel that would bear Him for 9 months would be holy and pure. So the sinlessness of Mary shows us how holy God is.

Mary was IMMACULATELY CONCEIVED. This makes her the “Second Eve.” Original Sin was inherited by all the generations before her…that would include her forebears.

This is what makes Mary ultra-ultra special.

 

[Axion]

If Mary’s sinlessness was necessary so that Jesus would be sinless, then Mary’s mother would have had to be sinless to ensure that Mary was sinless. And the same would have to be for Mary’s mother’s mother. And so on, and so on.

No. Mary, being human, could be MADE sinless, therefore she did not need sinless parents. Jesus beng Divine could not be redeemed or made sinless. therefore his nature must be sinless from the start.

Mary’s sinlessness does not ensure anything. God is all powerfull, He could have His Son born of a sinful woman if He [wanted to.

He could not however have His Son FORMED from the flesh and nature of a sinful woman.

Instead, I would argue this way. God is holy, and cannot stand to be in the presence of sin. Since He cannot stand to be in the presence of sin, it is fitting that He made sure that the vessel that would bear Him for 9 months would be holy and pure. So the sinlessness of Mary shows us how holy God is.

Yes. An additional reason, but not an exclusive reason.
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