Is the fallen Christian Roman Empire our lost Garden of Eden?

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Just like Israel was for so much time the Lost Paradise of Jews? Or, more in a secular sense, like Africa was the Lost Earthly Paradise of American Blacks?

I do this question just because I think that it is a funny matter of discussion… but I think that this could have serious consequences on me. I have always been a person dreaming with a Land (tough that Land must to be that I wanted). I have no special sympathy for Romanity but I can accept that if that is the culture over which we must grow up.

PS: I talk about the Christian Roman Empire… not the Pagan one. 😛
 
I think the Christian Roman Empire was a pretty brutal place, with slavery and constant wars going on. Also, by the time the Roman Empire was thoroughly Christianized I think it was falling apart at the seems. I could have the dates off though I’m talking off the top of my head. 🙂
 
Garyjohn2 said:
I think the Christian Roman Empire was a pretty brutal place, with slavery and constant wars going on. Also, by the time the Roman Empire was thoroughly Christianized I think it was falling apart at the seems. I could have the dates off though I’m talking off the top of my head. 🙂
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I said that I said due to have read that the fallen Empire was a dreamed (“Secular” if it is logic) Paradise during the Middle Ages. I said that also because I (just me) see certain special love towards Rome in catholic souls, maybe greater than that towards Jerusalem… but this is perhaps my no-orthodox catholicism (my not centerised catholicism) that what makes me think that… I think that my thread is too a text which wants to touch a Heavenly thing… even being human.
 
It’s true that the Roman Empire did a lot of amazing things, and it was highly romanticized during the middle ages, and even today. (hmm…are the words “Romanticized” and “Romantic” related to this??) I’m not sure if I entirely catch your meaning though. 🙂
 
Archedreamer said:
Just like Israel was for so much time the Lost Paradise of Jews? Or, more in a secular sense, like Africa was the Lost Earthly Paradise of American Blacks?

I do this question just because I think that it is a funny matter of discussion… but I think that this could have serious consequences on me. I have always been a person dreaming with a Land (tough that Land must to be that I wanted). I have no special sympathy for Romanity but I can accept that if that is the culture over which we must grow up.

PS: I talk about the Christian Roman Empire… not the Pagan one. 😛
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To tell the truth, I don’t think Christians have truly had one place to call the mother of all places and for all time. Jerusalem, Nazareth and Bethlehem seem to be the most common or universal equivalents of Africa and Israel for all Christians. However, for Christians, Jerusalem, Nazareth, and Bethlehem are primarily significant for our past – for many Jews and some black people, Africa are and Israel significant for the present and future as much as they are for the past.
 
Catholics love the city of Rome because it is the center of our faith; we do not yearn for the restoration of the Empire, any more than we long for the Papal States again. Rome is the heart of the Church whether it is the head of the old empire or the modern country of Italy.

We do relate to it more than to Jerusalem, for the most part, because Jerusalem never had the centuries of association with the Church that Rome has had.

In the Middle Ages, there apparently was a dream to restore the old Roman Empire, but that was a secular dream rather than an ecclesial one, IIUC.

ICXC NIKA
 
Garyjohn2 said:
I think the Christian Roman Empire was a pretty brutal place, with slavery and constant wars going on. Also, by the time the Roman Empire was thoroughly Christianized I think it was falling apart at the seems. I could have the dates off though I’m talking off the top of my head. 🙂
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Slavery? Nope. It was outlawed as soon as the Empire became Christian. Aside from the occassional civil war, since the empire was unified under one government, the only wars would have been from barbarian incursions (since the Empire was on the defensive by this point). In reference to civil wars, they happened all the time in the Late Pagan Empire, but were much less frequent under the Christian Emperors.
 
No, not at all. If we were looking at this from a medieval perspective, maybe-the Roman standard of living was higher than the medieval standard of living, but would you rather live in Roman times than live today?

I can understand, to a degree, people who yearn for the 1950’s (although I still disagree with them), but I’m perfectly happy to be living in 2012.

It makes sense for actually oppressed peoples to yearn for another time and place.
 
Archedreamer said:
Just like Israel was for so much time the Lost Paradise of Jews? Or, more in a secular sense, like Africa was the Lost Earthly Paradise of American Blacks?

I do this question just because I think that it is a funny matter of discussion… but I think that this could have serious consequences on me. I have always been a person dreaming with a Land (tough that Land must to be that I wanted). I have no special sympathy for Romanity but I can accept that if that is the culture over which we must grow up.

PS: I talk about the Christian Roman Empire… not the Pagan one. 😛
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No. I think that our Lost Garden of Eden is our heavenly homeland. All earthly empires tend towards evil.
 
Lujack said:
No, not at all. If we were looking at this from a medieval perspective, maybe-the Roman standard of living was higher than the medieval standard of living, but would you rather live in Roman times than live today?

I can understand, to a degree, people who yearn for the 1950’s (although I still disagree with them), but I’m perfectly happy to be living in 2012.

It makes sense for actually oppressed peoples to yearn for another time and place.
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I would answer yes to your question (because you have asked: Would you rather live in Roman times than live today? But you have had a good answer for me when you said that yo yearn for another time and places makes sense for actually opressed people.

I was looking to know about what should be our Catholic Community, our Containment space where we could rise, also acting according to their social ideals… it is to say, making, as youth, a rite of passage to access into a land without dangers. The Church could maybe be that land… but I don’t know if She is too spiritual and little cultural. Anyways, I dream with a Past because I have a problem in this present (I want climb to the Jerusalemite Citadel - to impress Jewish people, specially one jewish maiden, being Christian.)

God has shown me that He do has a Plan for make Gentiles arrive to the Shinning City. We must suffer Passion… I think that I have found that Passion gives our personality to Christians such as Law gives their personality to Jews… and Passion was like going to the Law… but Law leads to Life, and Passion leads to Death… I wanted to know if I could have a taste of life… a piece of knowledge about Jerusalem or at least about some Catholic pretty atmosphere within I could make Gym works (knowledge is the spanish word for english intercourse as is reffered is Genesis 4:1 between Adam and Eve, but I display this without fleshly meaning!, just meaning that I want to have a Containment space in that people’s heart). God is so Much as He always shows me that He had always put on a Paradise before me but it wasn’t distinct for me because I have too many sins into me… after Passion there is always Eternal Glory… suffering Passion it is possible enter to Jerusalem.

And how could be a Culture of Passion? (it is just an idea for discussion, not take it as an obligation to answer it)… But I think that if Law was that what gave personality to Classic Societies (such as Hamurrabi gave a Code and made Babyonia, Moshes gave a Law and “made” Israel, Lycurgus gave a Constitution and made Sparta, Solon gave some laws and made Athens) Catholic Culture could be made over Passion… that would be a Culture of Holiness, a Culture of Worship… (latin word for Worship is Cultus, :hmmm:)

but maybe all that which leads me to make this I make they are my protestant roots: My cathegorical way of life that makes me love cultures (as containment spaces) and at the same time it puts me in a situation where I can want scape from that Orthodoxy (categorically impossed, not catholically impossed) and let got without Catholic guide (Who catolic leaves come to His Mind a desire of recklesness? Catholic culture seems be a grey Culture of reception of Passion… but that greyness will be someday such shinning as silver, you will see your grey habits become armors, you will be a People of Monks become too a People of Knights… where we grow up is a Land that will rise us… but we don’t see that… what a tragedy!

Bye!:tiphat:
 
Katholish said:
Slavery? Nope. It was outlawed as soon as the Empire became Christian. Aside from the occassional civil war, since the empire was unified under one government, the only wars would have been from barbarian incursions (since the Empire was on the defensive by this point). In reference to civil wars, they happened all the time in the Late Pagan Empire, but were much less frequent under the Christian Emperors.
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Slavery was still in effect during and after the Christianization of the Empire! Once Constantine was in power, he gave the Bishops the ability to free slaves, but there was still slavery for several centuries after. Here’s a brief synopsis:
bibleapologetics.wordpress.com/christians-and-slavery-13/

There were wars too. Here’s a list of Roman wars:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Rome
There were more wars in the 4th century (Christian Rome) than the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd, but not nearly as many as the 1st century BC. I wonder how these measure up in terms of last century’s modern wars?
 
Which one? The Empire from Constantine to the deposition of the Western Empire in 476? The Byzantine ‘Roman’ Empire that fell in 1453? Or the Holy Roman Empire that ruled Germany from the time of Charlemagne until it was broken up by Napoleon in 1806?

Seriously though, we have no earthly city, just as the Son of Man had no place to lay his head. We are called to a heavenly city. When Catholics start confusing the Kingdom of God with some romanticized notion of the past, it can lead to all kinds of problems.
 
Garyjohn2 said:
Slavery was still in effect during and after the Christianization of the Empire! Once Constantine was in power, he gave the Bishops the ability to free slaves, but there was still slavery for several centuries after. Here’s a brief synopsis:
bibleapologetics.wordpress.com/christians-and-slavery-13/

There were wars too. Here’s a list of Roman wars:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Rome
There were more wars in the 4th century (Christian Rome) than the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd, but not nearly as many as the 1st century BC. I wonder how these measure up in terms of last century’s modern wars?
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It would be a mistake to call 4th Century Rome “Christian Rome”. I wouldn’t really call Rome Christian until Theodosius at the very end of the 4th Century. Kind of strange that list doesn’t include the 5th Century. 313 might have been the Edict of Milan making Christianity legal, but Christians were still a minority, especially in the West. It is true that there were some Christian emperors (but also notable exceptions like Julian the Apostate who tried to destroy the Church). It wasn’t until Theodosius that Catholicism was actually made the official religion of the Empire.
 
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