Is the first Catholic Church Roman?

[PattyPryor]

I was wondering if the first Catholic church rooted in Jesus was the Roman Catholic Church. Can someone in Ireland be a Roman Catholic or just Irish Catholic?

I hope this makes sense

 

[Vico]

I was wondering if the first Catholic church rooted in Jesus was the Roman Catholic Church. Can someone in Ireland be a Roman Catholic or just Irish Catholic?

I hope this makes sense

If you mean the Catholic Church one is Catholic through membership in one of the 23 Catholic sui iuris churches that are in full communion with each other:
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=601&pictureid=11498

 

[PattyPryor]

I get that there are 23 Catholic Churches. I was wondering if the FIRST was called Roman Catholic. I watched a video and that is what it said and I just wanted it confirmed

 

[DavidFilmer]

The Catholic Church (led by the Bishop of Rome) is sometimes called the "Roman Catholic Church. This is not a title that the Church uses, and it is considered improper.

As Vico points out, there are many Churches that have legitimate claim to the term “Catholic.” If I need to differentiate, I will usually refer to my Church as the “Latin Church.” You will never catch me saying that I’m a Roman Catholic.

Anyone in the world can belong to the (Roman) Catholic Church.

 

[PattyPryor]

Thank You!

 

[phil19034]

These two links are good ones regarding the Rites and Churches of the Catholic Church.

Both links are to ETWN, and two different versions of the same article, but with worth the read (they are not long)

ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm
ewtn.com/expert/answers/rites.htm

Also, this link is good too:
ewtn.com/expert/answers/churches_rites_or_sisters.htm

God Bless

 

[Tomdstone]

I was wondering if the first Catholic church rooted in Jesus was the Roman Catholic Church. Can someone in Ireland be a Roman Catholic or just Irish Catholic?

I hope this makes sense

In the beginning, the Catholic Church was loosely united and consisted of what are now (i.e. today) the Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Eastern Orthodox Churches and the Roman Catholic Church and those in communion with the Roman Catholic Church today.

 

[Vico]

I get that there are 23 Catholic Churches. I was wondering if the FIRST was called Roman Catholic. I watched a video and that is what it said and I just wanted it confirmed

1500s, Romish became Roman. It was “introduced by Protestant%between% divines who highly resented the Roman claim to any monopoly of the term Catholic%between%.”
newadvent.org/cathen/13121a.htm

**Acts 11:25-26 *Then he went to Tarsus to look for Saul, and when he had found him he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a large number of people, and it was in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians.

• Christians: “Christians” is first applied to the members of the community at Antioch because the Gentile members of the community enable it to stand out clearly from Judaism.

 

[guanophore]

1500s, Romish became Roman. It was “introduced by Protestant%between% divines who highly resented the Roman claim to any monopoly of the term Catholic%between%.”
newadvent.org/cathen/13121a.htm

**Acts 11:25-26 *Then he went to Tarsus to look for Saul, and when he had found him he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a large number of people, and it was in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians.

• Christians: “Christians” is first applied to the members of the community at Antioch because the Gentile members of the community enable it to stand out clearly from Judaism.

Well said Vico. The line of Bishops ordained by Peter in Antioch of Syria is actually older than the line from Rome.

We see the first use of the term “Catholic” in the Book of Acts:

Acts 9:31
So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied.

The words “church throughout” (Kath Holos) was first Judean,in Palestine, Galilea and Samaria. All of the original members of the Catholic Church were Jews from Palestine,and the Church remained based in Palestine until the Christians were ejected from the Synagogues after the Temple fell in 70 AD. Paul’s missionary journeys that we read about in the book of Acts were the main impetus that spread the faith all over the Roman Empire.

Peter and Paul did not end up in Rome until the end of their ministries.

 

[steve_b]

I get that there are 23 Catholic Churches. I was wondering if the FIRST was called Roman Catholic. I watched a video and that is what it said and I just wanted it confirmed

Re: Roman Catholic

Even though the Roman/Latin rite makes up ~98% of the Catholic Church, all the rites within the Catholic Church are 100% Catholic because they are united to the chair of Peter.

Those who are NOT united to the chair of Peter are NOT Catholic, nor are they in any sense the Catholic Church.

As an aside, Paul wote to the Church of Rome (letter to the Romans) ~54 a.d. Obviously not only is the Church here already established, it has been an example for the whole world Romans 1:8

 

[Mystophilus]

I was wondering if the first Catholic church rooted in Jesus was the Roman Catholic Church.

The first, truly catholic (“universal”) church was the Church which Jesus founded, which grew and developed across the Mediterranean world and eastward into Asia. When founded, it was not Roman, but Jewish/Hellenic.

Over time, disagreements split the church. The Roman Catholic Church today, Sancta Catholica Apostolica Romana Ecclesia, is the largest of the descendants of that original and claims to be the one true descendant; however, the Orthodox claim the same thing, as do various (but not all) Protestant groups.

So, on the one hand, the Roman Catholic Church is not identical to the original from which it developed but its apologists believe that it is the only one which developed correctly, i.e. they effectively disqualify the others.

Can someone in Ireland be a Roman Catholic or just Irish Catholic?

An Irish Catholic is a Roman Catholic, but not all Roman Catholics are Irish Catholics.

 

[Abu]

The Church founded by Jesus of Nazareth is universal. Catholic was first used by St Ignatius of Antioch in his letter to the Smyrneans, A.D. 107, “Where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” It is from the Greek katholike meaning “general” or “universal”. Within 90 years it meant also “orthodox” or faithful to the teachings of Christ. (The Catholic Catechism, Fr John A Hardon, S.J., Doubleday, 1975, p 217).

 

[Mystophilus]

The Catholic Church (led by the Bishop of Rome) is sometimes called the "Roman Catholic Church. This is not a title that the Church uses, and it is considered improper.

As early as 778, we find Pope Adrian I writing to Charlegmagne from “Catholica et Apostolica Romana ecclesia”, and in 1870, Vatican I refers to “Sancta Catholica Apostolica Romana Ecclesia”. Those are both in Latin, with its fluid approach to word order.

In English, of course, word order is more fixed, and in 1891, the Baltimore Catechism uses “Roman Catholic Church” (114, 131, 133).

Then, from the Vatican itself, we have the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity referring both to “Roman Catholics” and to the “Roman Catholic Church”, the Report of the International Roman Catholic-Old Catholic Dialogue Commission referring to, well, that (using the terms both for believers and the whole church), and, indeed, the Office of Papal Liturgical Celebrations talking about “Cardinals of the Roman Catholic Church”.

It seems that not everyone, even in the Vatican, considers it improper.

 

[guanophore]

Those who are NOT united to the chair of Peter are NOT Catholic, nor are they in any sense the Catholic Church.

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#838

It seems that the Catechism finds them Catholic in a “profound” sense.

So, on the one hand, the Roman Catholic Church is not identical to the original from which it developed but its apologists believe that it is the only one which developed correctly, i.e. they effectively disqualify the others.

I don’t think this is an accurate reflection of the Catholic position.

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#838

I don’t see anything in here that would be considered “disqualified”. Rather, I think it is noting that important elements of the Church founded by Christ have been lost through the splintering.

 

[guanophore]

As early as 778, we find Pope Adrian I writing to Charlegmagne from “Catholica et Apostolica Romana ecclesia”, and in 1870, Vatican I refers to “Sancta Catholica Apostolica Romana Ecclesia”. Those are both in Latin, with its fluid approach to word order.

In English, of course, word order is more fixed, and in 1891, the Baltimore Catechism uses “Roman Catholic Church” (114, 131, 133).

Then, from the Vatican itself, we have the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity referring both to “Roman Catholics” and to the “Roman Catholic Church”, the Report of the International Roman Catholic-Old Catholic Dialogue Commission referring to, well, that (using the terms both for believers and the whole church), and, indeed, the Office of Papal Liturgical Celebrations talking about “Cardinals of the Roman Catholic Church”.

It seems that not everyone, even in the Vatican, considers it improper.

You are right on here, Mystophilus. The Latin ruled Catholic Church described and wrote about itself as “Roman” in official documents and proceedings from the time of the East West Schism up until Vatican II, since which time more attempt has been made to honor the other non-Latin sui iuris Catholic Churches, and to move beyond the National ideas of Church (like the example you gave of “Irish Catholics”.

When Vat. II enabled the translation of the liturgy into vernacular, much of the “Latin” was lost out of the liturgy, first in the US, then around the world. There has no been some compensetory movement to return to the ancient official language of the Church, but this time, not discouting or forcing the Greek Catholics to give up their cultural and linguistic heritage.

 

[steve_b]

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#838

It seems that the Catechism finds them Catholic in a “profound” sense.

“baptism” and “christian” doesn’t automatically make one Catholic. If it automatically made one Catholic they could immediately receive all the sacraments of the Church. Can they? Nope!

 

[steve_b]

The first, truly catholic (“universal”) church was the Church which Jesus founded, which grew and developed across the Mediterranean world and eastward into Asia. When founded, it was not Roman, but Jewish/Hellenic.

For some clarifications,
The “Roman” qualifier for the Catholic Church is explained here Roman Catholic & here taking a Q/A format radioreplies.info/radio-replies-vol-4.php?t=21

BTW, The official name of the Church is the Catholic Church. No qualifiers

Over time, disagreements split the church. The Roman Catholic Church today, Sancta Catholica Apostolica Romana Ecclesia, is the largest of the descendants of that original and claims to be the one true descendant; however, the Orthodox claim the same thing, as do various (but not all) Protestant groups.

All Protestants regardless of stripe fall into The Great Heresies each heresy coming in their own time. Protestant roots go no farther back than the protestant revolt in the 16th century. Hence Cardinal Newman’s famous quote, “to be deep in history is to cease being Protestant”

The Church has been the Catholic Church from the beginning.

**#34 **all internal links are operational. If any don’t open for you let me know

BTW, I’ve asked this question over the years. Haven’t gotten an answer… yet. Maybe you have one.

When is the first time we see “Orthodox Church” in writing?
Please give references properly referenced

As a general observation I would think the answer has to be well AFTER the council of Nicea, because the Nicene creed makes it an article of faith that one is to believe in One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.

The Orthodox are seperated from the chair of Peter as well, thus they are in schism. An act of schism, like heresy as well, are condemned in scripture. And that condemnation has no expiration date.

BTW, Ignatius of Antioch, in his letter to the Church of Rome, wrote that the Church of Rome holds the presidency. To no other Church did he acknowledge that, not even his own. So given Ignatius was Bishop from ~69 a.d. to ~107 a.d. and a direct disciple of St John, I think it’s clear where he received that understanding.
M:

So, on the one hand, the Roman Catholic Church is not identical to the original from which it developed but its apologists believe that it is the only one which developed correctly, i.e. they effectively disqualify the others.

All who are united to the see of Peter, the pope of Rome, are in unity with Jesus and what Jesus established. Once a person is NOT in union with the see of Peter, and knows they need to be and refuse to unite with him, then as Paul says, (inspired by the Holy Spirit, which in effect comes from Jesus) warns that heaven will not be in that person’s future.
M:

An Irish Catholic is a Roman Catholic, but not all Roman Catholics are Irish Catholics.

An Irish Catholic is a Catholic. Re: different “rites” in the Catholic Church, they are still Catholic. If an Irish person is Anglican for example, they are Protestant

Just wanted to make a few clarifications

 

[LongingSoul]

I was wondering if the first Catholic church rooted in Jesus was the Roman Catholic Church. Can someone in Ireland be a Roman Catholic or just Irish Catholic?

I hope this makes sense

When I was growing up in the 1960’s I recall my Mother numerous times correcting people who referred to themselves as ‘Roman’ Catholics. The term had been used by Protestants as an insult to the Church and then it seems to have found its way into popular use through converts from Protestantism who had always heard the term Roman Catholic not connecting that with the insult it was.

Catholic actually specifically denotes universal/one faith. It is the opposite to any sort of division… so in fact it is an oxymoron.

It still grates on me to hear it used and I dislike seeing people identify themselves here on the board as Religion: Roman Catholic.

 

[steve_b]

As early as 778, we find Pope Adrian I writing to Charlegmagne from “Catholica et Apostolica Romana ecclesia”, and in 1870, Vatican I refers to “Sancta Catholica Apostolica Romana Ecclesia”. Those are both in Latin, with its fluid approach to word order.

newadvent.org/cathen/05118a.htm are you refering to the forgery?

 

[guanophore]

“baptism” and “christian” doesn’t automatically make one Catholic. If it automatically made one Catholic they could immediately receive all the sacraments of the Church. Can they? Nope!

I was referring to our Orthodox brethren, who are welcome at the sacraments.