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rcwitness
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Did Solomon end up doing what she requested?
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Tis_Bearself
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They’re not going to use that word because it contuses people too much, as shown by the fact that CAF has had about 10 past threads on this “Omnipotence” of Mary topic from Liguori.
However, what Liguori wrote is theologically correct.
The Catechism states:
Bottom line is, Mary’s power, to the extent she has any, flows from her union with her son Jesus Christ and her complete conformance to the Will of God. God/ Christ are omnipotent and can exercise their power through her. It’s not “her” power, it’s God’s power working THROUGH her. “To Jesus through Mary”. Mary doesn’t have power in and of her own self and Liguori was not saying that she did.
The Glories of Mary has been published with the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur. The Nihil Obstat and Imprimature are declarations that the contents of a book are “free from doctrinal and moral error”. Therefore, the book contains nothing contrary to Catholic doctrine.
As the book is private revelation and not part of the deposit of faith, Catholics aren’t required to believe in it, but if they go further and say that it contains doctrinal or moral error (e.g. the author is a “heretic”), then they are wrong.
The Catholic Church in this case went even further and made Liguori a saint. The sainthood process includes examining the person’s writings. If the person wrote things that contained doctrinal or moral error, then they wouldn’t get to be a saint. Once they are declared a saint, that is a declaration of the Church, so if you suggest he is not a saint - for example by saying he is a heretic, because heretics can’t be saints - your opinion is contrary to the official position of the Church.
So…
You are not required as a Catholic to believe everything written in The Glories of Mary.
BUT you are incorrect if you claim it contains “doctrinal or moral error”.
AND if you claim Liguori was a heretic then your claim is directly opposed to the Church’s official position that he is a saint.
PLUS there are sound theological bases for Liguori’s statement about Mary’s omnipotence, whether you choose to believe it or not. If you don’t like what I wrote, like I said there are many past threads with other arguments, feel free to read them all.
I’m done here, as some people are going to have a problem with Mary no matter what. It’s their loss.
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rose321
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Respectfully opinion only St Paul quotes heavily from OT does he not and so does Jesus, repeats and teaches, Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount and mentions many from within OT does he not and their sayings? Can list them all. Peace
And Jesus knows they added and subtracted from His Spoken Word rebukes those who did, did he not all in Matthew 23?
Wonder why there is so much confusion? divisions? chaos?so much etc today?
Like someone writes a book and another who reads it, reads into what is not there, why write anything if we do not simply read what is written? 10 people could read the same book using typology and would the author come away with, where did you get that>>> not what I was writing about? Peace
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godisgood77
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I think that is backwards… the priest obeys God with each consecration… ‘do this in memory of me’…
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rcwitness
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Having an issue about a private revelation statement such as “At the command of Mary all obey, even God” is a world of difference from having a problem with Mary.
Its this mentality that turns me off. The Church has never spoke like this, and any genuine Catholic should question this kind of claim.
Catholics are free to reject it.
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rose321
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Respected opinion only. Our Blessed Mother Mary was given to, by our Heavenly Father, what she offered was, what she had been given to her right?
Written, Let no one boast for All have been given to.
Read Luke 146-55 Canticle of Mary Her song of Praise, thanksgiving to?
Our Heavenly Father has many biblical verses on >>those who boast.
Our Blessed Mother being a Jew born and raised in the Faith & belief, would know not to every boast, would she not? Song of Mary in Luke makes it very clear she has not boasting but praising giving thanks to what she had receive and call to serve in saying yes to?
Jeremiah 9:23?
Galatians 6:14?
Hebrews 3:6?
Romans 2:17?
Psalm 44:8?
Psalm 34:12?
2 Corinthians 10:17?
1 Corinthians 1:31
Psalms 34:2, 44: 8?
Isaiah 45:25?
Jesus tells us himself I can do nothing without my father.
John 5:19
John 1:3
John 18-20
John 5:17
Within Matthew also etc.
Weep not our dear Blessed Mother Mary!
Peace
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AlNg
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Exactly,.
Which editions contain the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur ? Later editions have omitted or watered down some of the things written in the earlier editions. In glories of Mary it is written:
It is impossible for someone who is not devout to Mary to be saved.
(1921 edition, page 221) (quoting St. Anselm).
He who does not invoke Mary, will not go to heaven (page 222, 1921 edition).
This is contrary to what a priest who posted here on CAF has asserted. In reference to a convert from Protestantism, he said that it was not absolutely necessary for him to pray to Mary even though he was now a Catholic. (at least that is what I understood).
Part of a Prayer to Mary from 1888 edition:
Most holy Virgin Immaculate, my Mother Mary, to thee who art the Mother of my Lord, the queen of the universe, the advocate, the hope, the refuge of sinners, I who am the most miserable of all sinners, have recourse this day. I adore thee, O great Queen, and I thank thee for the many graces thou has bestowed upon me even unto this day; in particular for having delivered me from the hell which I have so often deserved by my sins. I love thee, most dear Lady; and for the love I bear thee, I promise to serve thee willingly forever and to do what I can to make thee loved by others also. I place in thee all my hopes for salvation;…(1888 edition page 333). Slightly later editions say I worship thee O great Queen
But recent editions say I venerate thee O great Queen.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
So are you telling me when Jesus was little and Mother Mary said, “Jesus, time to come in from playing and eat dinner” or “Jesus, time to leave the Temple and go home to Nazareth with your dad and me now” or even when He was grown up and she said, “Jesus, they have no wine”, Jesus just said, “Buzz off Mom, I’m God, I’ll do what I want”?
Or did Jesus, who is God, obey her, His mother?
Think about it.
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rcwitness
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Ok. Ive thought about it.rcwitness:
So are you telling me when Jesus was little and Mother Mary said, “Jesus, time to come in from playing and eat dinner” or “Jesus, time to leave the Temple and go home to Nazareth with your dad and me now” or even when He was grown up and she said, “Jesus, they have no wine”, Jesus just said, “Buzz off Mom, I’m God, I’ll do what I want”?
Or did Jesus, who is God, obey her, His mother?
Think about it.
A parental instruction is a far cry from Mary commanding the adult Jesus anything.
God also obeyed St Joseph’s parental rules. Should we say the same thing of him?
Jesus became the Son of Man to serve, not to be served. However, Mary does not command God to do anything, but she may ask of Him for intercession.
Jesus also became obedient to Pontius Pilate.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
If God could choose (and it was a choice) to obey Pilate, then He could surely choose to obey Mary.
It is a choice on the part of God.
Since Mary was made in a manner perfectly conformed to do the will of God at all times, she could not possibly ever command God to do anything that God hadn’t already willed. So God will never be forced to go against His own will in obeying her. So He would never choose not to obey her.
It is a choice on the part of God.
Since Mary was made in a manner perfectly conformed to do the will of God at all times, she could not possibly ever command God to do anything that God hadn’t already willed. So God will never be forced to go against His own will in obeying her. So He would never choose not to obey her.
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rcwitness
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You are twisting things around some.
Mary does not dictate the Will of the Father with a petition. Consider the request of the Sons of Thunder:
And James and John, the sons of Zeb′edee, came forward to him, and said to him, “Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you.” 36 And he said to them, “What do you want me to do for you?” 37 And they said to him, “Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory.” 38 But Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?” 39 And they said to him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink you will drink; and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized; 40 but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared.”
Not all things are His to grant, but has to do with other things too.
The Will of the Father is first, and our prayers must conform to His Will. Sometimes a petition will conform with His Will. And other times His will may be different. Consider the Apostle’s request to the Lord:
2 Corinthians 12
And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. 8 Three times I besought the Lord about this, that it should leave me; 9 but he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” I will all the more gladly boast of my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
James and John asked for something that didn’t conform to the Will of God.
Mary would never make such a request, and never has. Mary never gets turned down because she never asks for anything that God would say no to.
Also, Mary is totally humble and lowly and would never be “too elated by the abundance of revelations”.
Mary would never make such a request, and never has. Mary never gets turned down because she never asks for anything that God would say no to.
Also, Mary is totally humble and lowly and would never be “too elated by the abundance of revelations”.
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Agathon
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No. Adonijah ended up dead.
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rcwitness
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First of all, how do you know this?
Second, so many may be asking for Mary’s intercession, but she may not even ask, because it does not conform to the Will of God?
If she only asked what vonforms to His Will, then it is not Him obeying her, but her obeying Him. That is a proper way to look at it.
Also, I believe it is God’s Will that we intercede for all men, but sometimes it is God’s Will that something other than our request happens.
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rcwitness
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NJada
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Even though I myself would have probably not used the word “command”, my guess is that St. Alphonsus chose that wording to emphasize the unfathomable humility of God and the mystery of the power God gave Mary and the perfection of the union of will between Jesus and Mary. Plus the context was important.
But if my guess is wrong, then there’s some other reason. I’m guessing if any of us spoke to St. Alphonsus himself, we would not want to say to him, ‘That’s wrong. It’s like this.’ But would probably say, ‘St. Alphonsus, why did you write it that way? I don’t understand. What is the meaning of this?’
But I guess I can’t be so sure it won’t happen that one day I’ll find myself holding something strongly which disagrees with a Doctor of the Church, because I’m less learned, and will have a difficult time admitting that I don’t know what I’m talking about.
We may disagree with the Saints about some things, since after all they sometimes disagreed with each other, and in such a case to agree with one Saint would necessarily be to disagree with another. But we should at least have some serious forbearance when critiquing them. And the fact that Saints disagreed on a certain subject shows that we will probably need some pretty exceptional learning to discern it, unless it has already been settled by the Church.
“Jesus, in choosing her as his inseparable associate in his life, glory and power in heaven and on earth, has given her by grace in his kingdom all the same rights and privileges that he possesses by nature. ‘All that belongs to God by nature belongs to Mary by grace’, say the saints, and, according to them, just as Jesus and Mary have the same will and the same power, they have also the same subjects, servants and slaves.”
St. Louis de Montfort (True Devotion, 74)
But if my guess is wrong, then there’s some other reason. I’m guessing if any of us spoke to St. Alphonsus himself, we would not want to say to him, ‘That’s wrong. It’s like this.’ But would probably say, ‘St. Alphonsus, why did you write it that way? I don’t understand. What is the meaning of this?’
But I guess I can’t be so sure it won’t happen that one day I’ll find myself holding something strongly which disagrees with a Doctor of the Church, because I’m less learned, and will have a difficult time admitting that I don’t know what I’m talking about.
We may disagree with the Saints about some things, since after all they sometimes disagreed with each other, and in such a case to agree with one Saint would necessarily be to disagree with another. But we should at least have some serious forbearance when critiquing them. And the fact that Saints disagreed on a certain subject shows that we will probably need some pretty exceptional learning to discern it, unless it has already been settled by the Church.
“Jesus, in choosing her as his inseparable associate in his life, glory and power in heaven and on earth, has given her by grace in his kingdom all the same rights and privileges that he possesses by nature. ‘All that belongs to God by nature belongs to Mary by grace’, say the saints, and, according to them, just as Jesus and Mary have the same will and the same power, they have also the same subjects, servants and slaves.”
St. Louis de Montfort (True Devotion, 74)
Tis_Bearself
Patron
It’s in the Catechism
If she knows that the thing being asked for would not be God’s will for that person, then she obviously won’t intercede for the specific thing as it would be pointless. She will intercede for something else that would be in line with God’s will for that person. She can also dispense God’s grace to the person since God has permitted her to do this.
That is also certainly true and you could look at it that way. Or, you could just look at it the way the Church does, that God and Mary are perfectly in tune with each other, because God made her to be the one human that would always be in tune with Him.
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NJada
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I explained somewhere above that biblical typology rarely works out that simply as a simple 1-to-1 correspondence.
If you’re interested:
Steve Ray
http://www.catholic-convert.com/blo...r-demonstrate-mary-is-not-a-good-intercessor/
Add that the the 39th footnote from this, by Edward Sri.
If you’re interested:
Steve Ray
http://www.catholic-convert.com/blo...r-demonstrate-mary-is-not-a-good-intercessor/
Add that the the 39th footnote from this, by Edward Sri.
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rcwitness
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Ok, the fact that Mary adheres to the Father’s Will does not translate to she always knows the Father’s Will. It means that what the Father Wills, she obeys. Asking for something for someone else and the Father saying, “No, I have different plans” does not constitute disobeying the Father’s Will.
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rcwitness
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But maybe the typology should be understood that Mary may ask something and be denied, not on account of her fault, but its just not the Will of the Father.
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