Is the hymn Supper of the Lord heretical?

[Contarini]

Hmmm, ive heard this song sung quite a bit in church, in fact fairly orthodox churches have played this. I’ve never really thought of it being heretical. Guess it shows how we need to pay more attention at mass.

Also, hymn books have plenty of hymns that shouldn’t be sung in church. I was always kind of confused that catholic hymnals had luther’s “A mighty fortress is our God”, since it was so identified with the reformation, but i guess in that sense it must be okay since a lot of churches sing one or two songs written by John Wesley (the founder of the Methodists).

Luther and Wesley (the hymns are mostly by Charles, not John, actually) have somewhat different relationships to Catholicism–while Wesley certainly was not orthodox by Catholic standards and said some strong things about Catholicism, he was not reacting against it directly and in fact some of his theology is quite Catholic. The same is true of Luther, but of course Luther did directly reject Catholicism.

Still, it seems to me that the question ought to be whether “A Mighty Fortress” is itself heretical.

After all, Protestants routinely sing “Faith of Our Fathers,” just altering the stanza that says “Mary’s prayers will bring all England back to thee.” Faber wrote that hymn about Catholicism and his hopes for England to become Catholic. When I sang it growing up, I assumed that the “dungeon, fire and sword” referred to Catholic persecution of Protestants (and also, of course, to the persecution of the early Christians), which was exactly the opposite of Faber’s intention.

Edwin

 

[Sirach2]

I just went over the verses and can find absolutely nothing heretical, for the words are found in scripture itself.

1. This is the bread of God, coming down from heaven, giving life to us – to all the world.
2. I am the living spring of eternal life, you that drink from me shall not thirst again.
3. I am the bread of heaven, giving life to you, you that eat this bread shall never die.
4. All those who feed on me have their life in me, as I have my life in the living God
5. All praise to you O Christ, present in this feast, in this bread we share in one life, one Lord.

And we hear it sung here. Beautiful!

If anyone finds this heretical, they would also find St. Augustine’s words heretical. I just heard them again last week as we celebrated his feast day. * “We become what we receive.”*

 

[ByzCathCantor]

And we hear it sung here. Beautiful!

Not being familiar with this hymn before seeing this thread, I listened to a couple of versions available on YouTube, including the linked in the above.

Is it my imagination, or does this sound a little like a variation on the melodic theme of “Here I Am Lord”? It was especially noticeable to me in the piano overture and opening lines in this video.

 

[Glennford]

This? This is the hymn you’re worried about? We sing A Mighty Fortress. Well, they sing it. I just hold up my fist in silent protest. Then the ushers ask me to leave, it’s a big scene.

 

[Sirach2]

Hello, ByzCathCantor,

As I listened, I could not detect a similarity to Here I am Lord. Goodness know, we’ve heard that hymn for years now, yet I didn’t think the melody resembled it.

On a bright note, I was very pleased to see the listing on the side for “The Summons.” My pastor has been using this hymn at daily mass lately, and I was very moved by the words therein. One line jumped out and spoke volumes to me, “Will you risk the hostile stare, should your life attract or scare?”

 

[TimothyH]

Yes, I suppose the lyrics do imply consubstantiation, but in the real world most people aren’t armchair theologians trying to find heresy in their soup, so I wouldn’t worry about it.

…in their soup…



I can’t help but picturing someone at a fancy restuarant searching through their soup looking for a speck of something they don’t like…

-Tim-

 

[ByzCathCantor]

As I listened, I could not detect a similarity to Here I am Lord. Goodness know, we’ve heard that hymn for years now, yet I didn’t think the melody resembled it.

Like I said, it could just be me, and my musical education and background might bias me to ID such patterns, even if they are rather subtle.

 

[Sirach2]

…in their soup…



I can’t help but picturing someone at a fancy restuarant searching through their soup looking for a speck of something they don’t like…

-Tim-

I apologize for going off-topic, but my son-in-law does this always! If there is a piece of tomato, onion, or anything he doesn’t like - out it goes. I had to laugh as I read your post – it really happens! He even dissects chili, taking out tomatoes and onions.

 

[Sirach2]

ByzCathCantor:

Like I said, it could just be me, and my musical education and background might bias me to ID such patterns, even if they are rather subtle.

It just occurred to me that there were other “Here I Am Lord” hymns. The one by Tom Booth has a good resemblance musically.

 

[MarkInOregon]

In the chorus it says: “Precious body precious blood here in bread and wine…”

If I understand this correctly…it is consubstantiation We believe in transubstantiation. How is this song (among others) allowed in the hymnals?

I am not familiar with this hymn are there addditional lyrics that imply consubstantiation? From what you have posted I did not jump to the conclusion that the hymn was saying anything about the bread and wine maintaining their substance and in fact I read it with the understanding of it refering to the real presence because, as a Catholic, that’s how I understand it. Is it the lack of the word “appearence” that troubles you? I think you are making more out of it than needs be–unless there is more to the hymn that you have not provided. Consubstantiation never crossed my mind when I read what you quoted.

Peace,
Mark

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

If you hear something so many times, you will start to believe it. When our hymns deliberately omit references to the Eucharistic Sacrifice and refer to it exclusively in terms of a meal, and when Holy Communion is constantly called “bread and wine” instead of a more accurate term, is it any wonder that so many Catholics see the Eucharist as merely symbolic?

The two most questionable lines in the song are in the refrain, “Precious Body, Precious Blood, here in bread and wine,” and in the fifth verse, “All praise to you, O Christ, present in this feast, in this bread we share in one life, one Lord.” Both of these quite literally illustrate the Lutheran doctrine of consubstantiation, in which the bread and wine are present together with the Body and Blood.

I doubt that Laurence Rosania is personally trying to spread heresy (after all, the refrain says "Precious Body, etc.), but this type of sloppy wording - all too common in OCP’s Eucharistic hymns - does nothing to support the faith of the majority of Catholics (statistically) who don’t accept the Real Presence. Aquinas was speaking to educated Catholics for whom there would be no question of the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation. OCP, as with any contemporary hymnal, should remember that they are speaking to an audience that is generally poorly catechized.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

If you hear something so many times, you will start to believe it. When our hymns deliberately omit references to the Eucharistic Sacrifice and refer to it exclusively in terms of a meal, and when Holy Communion is constantly called “bread and wine” instead of a more accurate term, is it any wonder that so many Catholics see the Eucharist as merely symbolic?

The two most questionable lines in the song are in the refrain, “Precious Body, Precious Blood, here in bread and wine,” and in the fifth verse, “All praise to you, O Christ, present in this feast, in this bread we share in one life, one Lord.” Both of these quite literally illustrate the Lutheran doctrine of consubstantiation, in which the bread and wine are present together with the Body and Blood.

I doubt that Laurence Rosania is personally trying to spread heresy (after all, the refrain says "Precious Body, etc.), but this type of sloppy wording - all too common in OCP’s Eucharistic hymns - does nothing to support the faith of the majority of Catholics (statistically) who don’t accept the Real Presence. Aquinas was speaking to educated Catholics for whom there would be no question of the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation. OCP, as with any contemporary hymnal, should remember that they are speaking to an audience that is generally poorly catechized.

Do you therefore regard the Memorial Acclamation “When we eat this Bread and drink this Cup, we proclaim your Death, O Lord, until you come again.” as contained in the new Roman Missal similarly “questionable,” “sloppy” and promotive of consubstantiation?

 

[SMHW]

Do you therefore regard the Memorial Acclamation “When we eat this Bread and drink this Cup, we proclaim your Death, O Lord, until you come again.” as contained in the new Roman Missal similarly “questionable,” “sloppy” and promotive of consubstantiation?

If so that would imply St. Paul was being sloppy.

 

[pnewton]

As I continue to study hymnody of the Latin Church, it is increasingly apparent that there is such a thing as liturgical music, appropriate with respect to text for use during the Mass. In the Eastern Churches, we tend to be rather rigid on text (Scripturally based) and allow for some variance in melody and setting, based on particular tradition.

I like scripturally based hymns, but I am also glad that we do not follow a sola scriptura hymnology. I would hate to miss the richness that the Saints have brought to traditional hymns.

As to the hymn in quesiton, while I get the OP’s point, it is scarcely heresy.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I like scripturally based hymns, but I am also glad that we do not follow a sola scriptura hymnology.

We don’t either. We simply reserve para-liturgical hymns for use before or after the Divine Liturgy (and otherwise - for example, on pilgrimage). They are most beloved and truly a part of the tradition. Also, there are ancient hymns used regularly in the Divine Liturgy that, while not being directly lifted from Scripture, have been deemed consistent with Sacred Scripture and Tradition and thus appropriate for Liturgical use. These do, inherently, have the approval of Church hierarchy for use in the Liturgy, and constitute part of the missal.

 

[Rich_C]

This? This is the hymn you’re worried about? We sing A Mighty Fortress. Well, they sing it. I just hold up my fist in silent protest. Then the ushers ask me to leave, it’s a big scene.

I would give you a slow clap on your way out if I didn’t think I’d be disrespecting the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[agapewolf]

It just occurred to me that there were other “Here I Am Lord” hymns. The one by Tom Booth has a good resemblance musically.

Completely disagree.

 

[pnewton]

We don’t either. We simply reserve para-liturgical hymns for use before or after the Divine Liturgy

I have never even heard of a para-liturgical hymn.

 

[pnewton]

When I sang it growing up, I assumed that the “dungeon, fire and sword” referred to Catholic persecution of Protestants (and also, of course, to the persecution of the early Christians), which was exactly the opposite of Faber’s intention.

Edwin

This older hymn can find new meaning today having just past the greatest century of martyrdom in the history of the Church. This line reminds me now of St. Maximillian Kolbe.

 

[RyanBlack]

Para-liturgical hymns are hymns that are not sung during the liturgy. However, they might be sung following the liturgy or at church events other than the liturgy.