Is the hymn Supper of the Lord heretical?

[Stylites]

This? This is the hymn you’re worried about? We sing A Mighty Fortress. Well, they sing it. I just hold up my fist in silent protest. Then the ushers ask me to leave, it’s a big scene.

Making a scene in Mass is not even something to joke about, much less actually do, or come to a Catholic forum to brag about it.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I have never even heard of a para-liturgical hymn.

Yet Roman Catholics sing them all the time. The subject of the OP is indeed a paraliturgical hymn, as it is not proper to the Mass.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Para-liturgical hymns are hymns that are not sung during the liturgy. However, they might be sung following the liturgy or at church events other than the liturgy.

That is true, but a more precise definition is that they are not proper to the Divine Liturgy (i.e. the text is not from the rubrics).

 

[pnewton]

Yet Roman Catholics sing them all the time. The subject of the OP is indeed a paraliturgical hymn, as it is not proper to the Mass.

Sure it is okay. There is no evidence otherwise. There is nothing wrong with hymns at Mass, even if they are not from Scripture or centuries old. I am begining to think the use of paraliturgical is some sort of made up insult.

Oh, and by “Divine Liturgy” do you just mean Mass? Is so, why don’t you just say Mass?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Sure it is okay.

It may be “OK” based on norms for usage of hymns in the celebration of the Mass, based on guidance of the bishops, however …

There is no evidence otherwise.

… the text of this hymn (and others) is not taken from the rubrics, therefore it is not proper to the Mass (like, say, the Propers from whence this terminology and usage derives).

There is nothing wrong with hymns at Mass, even if they are not from Scripture or centuries old. I am begining to think the use of paraliturgical is some sort of made up insult.

Yes, there is nothing wrong with hymns at Mass, and usage should be encouraged. Yet, there’s at least a thread a week here about a perceived “heretical” hymn, and I simply offered an element of a framework that is common to both traditions in the Church - Latin & Eastern - in which to consider their propriety.

I am begining to think the use of paraliturgical is some sort of made up insult.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I have posted consistently in support of liturgical music, and will continue to do so as constructively as possible.

Oh, and by “Divine Liturgy” do you just mean Mass? Is so, why don’t you just say Mass?

We would not call our form of Eucharist worship the “Mass”. We might take insult from your inference that they are one and the same. Yet, has it not become rather fashionable in the Western tradition to refer to the Mass as the Liturgy, as well?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

ever hear of a Paraliturgy (source: EWTN) ?

improper usage in this context, yet hardly “made up”

 

[RyanBlack]

Sure it is okay. There is no evidence otherwise. There is nothing wrong with hymns at Mass, even if they are not from Scripture or centuries old. I am begining to think the use of paraliturgical is some sort of made up insult.

Oh, and by “Divine Liturgy” do you just mean Mass? Is so, why don’t you just say Mass?

I assure you the term “paraliturgical hymn” is not a “made up insult.” I’m not so sure about its use in Roman Catholic circles, but in Byzantine Catholic circles, it refers to hymns that are not proper to the Divine Liturgy, and so they are used after Divine Liturgy or in non-liturgical church settings. As for the term Divine Liturgy, it is the celebration of the Eucharist for Eastern Christians, both Catholic and Orthodox, so it corresponds to the Mass. I have used this term and so has ByzCathCantor because we are Eastern Catholics. While I cannot speak for ByzCathCantor, I used the term Divine Liturgy and not Mass, because I was speaking about paraliturgical hymns in the context of my own church’s tradition.

 

[pnewton]

… the text of this hymn (and others) is not taken from the rubrics, therefore it is not proper to the Mass (like, say, the Propers from whence this terminology and usage derives)…
We would not call our form of Eucharist worship the “Mass”. We might take insult from your inference that they are one and the same. Yet, has it not become rather fashionable in the Western tradition to refer to the Mass as the Liturgy, as well?

Then I think there is a language issue. The way you used proper (lower case, adjective) was meant as a reference to the Propers, which is something I did not catch. Likewise, the hymn in question was in the context of the Mass, which is why I was confused by your use of “Divine Liturgy”. So there was no insult, since the OP gave no indication of any application to the Byzantine Rite. Yes, Liturgy is used sometimes to describe Mass, but it is inaccurate, as Mass is but one Liturgy the Church uses. It is a liturgy, but not the onlyliturgy.

 

[pnewton]

I assure you the term “paraliturgical hymn” is not a “made up insult.”

As I said, I did not know the word. I have been here for eight years and tonight is the first time I have ever seen it, to describes something not “proper” to Mass. If terms are brought over from usage in other rites to describe something in the Latin Rite, it would help if this could be explained. That way, the contribution from other rites can be seen in context.

I could say the same problem arises from any theological term that is held in common (not as in Common) with the English language.

Is this hymn in question even used in other rites that anyone knows?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

The Churches, East and West, do use common lingo in reference to the rubrics of the Mass / Divine Liturgy. What is “common” to the Mass/DL is used repeatedly and is “liturgical” by nature. What is “proper” to the Mass/DL is used occasionally, complementing the common elements of rubrics and is also “liturgical” by nature. Anything else is paraliturgical (outside the rubrics) by default.

In self-critique, many of the “Communion Hymns” we chant in our tradition are indeed paraliturgical (e.g. “Give me Your Body, O Christ”) and technically should not be sung during distribution of the Eucharist. Nor should Marian Hymns, as is done in some parish settings. Psalms should be used per custom (e.g. “Praise You, the Lord”, a proper Communion Hymn). We’re not “perfect” in this regard, either.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

tonight is the first time I have ever seen it, to describes something not “proper” to Mass

Are you familiar with the term “Propers” as used in the context of celebrating the Mass?

 

[pnewton]

Are you familiar with the term “Propers” as used in the context of celebrating the Mass?

Yes, although I have usually seen it capitalized and with the definite article. I have never heard it used as an adjective before, but I see now in the context what you mean. Likewise, I think you are saying the paraliturgical is something outside (not defined by) the Rubrics.

I am all for increasing vocabulary. I also believe in refining definitions in a discussion. So as I see it, my confusion hasn’t been a waste of time.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

So as I see it, my confusion hasn’t been a waste of time.

Not in the least! Thanks for being patient with it!

Of course, discussing these types of hymns is different than, say, considering the Santus chanted to the melody of a Beatles tune. It may be liturgical, but …

 

[paulisrael]

We also believe that hymms placed in the hymnal by bishops are not heretical when we don’t understand the reasons for their selection or the nuanced meanings behind their words. We prefer to trust our bishops rather than our own opinions, no?

Would you likewise have a problem with Holy Scripture when St. Paul writes about bread here? “Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.”

Or here? “For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.”

Or in Acts? "And continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they took their meat with gladness and simplicity of heart; "

Honestly, yes I trust our bishops…to a point. Lies can and do sneak into the Church in undetected ways…and have been so at times by the hierarchy. I believe in Jesus and His Church,but I’m also very aware of human nature…as well as the cleverness of the enemy.

St. Paul doesn’t say “wine.” The Bread of Life we know is true. But we don’t refer to His Precious Blood as wine. The accidents (appearances) are bread and wine. That we know. But the substance is Him. So the bread and wine no longer exist. The difference is that Jesus says He is the Bread of Life, but he never says His Blood is wine. that’s where I’m coming from. The wine no longer exists. So how can He He be there IN bread and wine?

 

[paulisrael]

There can be different types of “in”. “Consubstantial with” doesn’t fit in the one beat to make the rhythm of the hymn work. Sing it yourself, if you don’t believe me. It just doesn’t flow. We understand what “in” means in this case without being so nit-picky.

What types of “in” would there be? I honestly don’t know them. And if it said “consubstantial with” we’d definitely be terribly mistaken. I see only one way to take this…and no matter what’s been said here it’s still not conclusive.

And as a songwriter, I understand flow and all that. I always thought there would be a very easy solution to this song. Simply change “here in” to “form of.” Then voila! Insatant Truth!

I truly don’t think I’m being nit-picky. What is it? Thirty percent of the Church that believes in His true presence? We have been terrible at teaching and proclaiming the Truth for decades. It’s now the worst it’s ever been. And then they go and put songs like this in the hymnals? No wonder so many are confused! But thank you for your honest thoughts!

 

[paulisrael]

Yes, I suppose the lyrics do imply consubstantiation, but in the real world most people aren’t armchair theologians trying to find heresy in their soup, so I wouldn’t worry about it.

I’m not suggesting everyone be a theologian. And I’m sure not looking to find heresy in everything I see and hear. I’d much prefer Truth. That’s all. I’ve lamented the watered down Catholic music that;s been around my whole life. Much of it lacks meat…ot Truth. The devil will tell you 99 truths amd 1 lie to knock you off the path.

 

[RyanBlack]

Honestly, yes I trust our bishops…to a point. Lies can and do sneak into the Church in undetected ways…and have been so at times by the hierarchy. I believe in Jesus and His Church,but I’m also very aware of human nature…as well as the cleverness of the enemy.

St. Paul doesn’t say “wine.” The Bread of Life we know is true. But we don’t refer to His Precious Blood as wine. The accidents (appearances) are bread and wine. That we know. But the substance is Him. So the bread and wine no longer exist. The difference is that Jesus says He is the Bread of Life, but he never says His Blood is wine. that’s where I’m coming from. The wine no longer exists. So how can He He be there IN bread and wine?

As I pointed out in post 12 of this thread, St. Basil the Great, Doctor of the Church, refers to the Body and Blood of our Lord as “bread and wine.” Is St. Basil a heretic?

 

[paulisrael]

I suppose not in his context, but in this day and age I think specificity is important.

 

[RyanBlack]

I suppose not in his context, but in this day and age I think specificity is important.

Well, yes, I would agree, specificity is important. And I would be quite specific in pointing out that it is the case that, even from the Catholic understanding, the bread and wine remain after the consection-not, of course, on the level of substance, but as accidents. But I doubt the writer of the hymn was thinking at that level. Personally, I would be very relectant about an accusation of heresy, given the history of using that sort of language in Catholic and Orthodox contexts.

 

[Phemie]

Not in the least! Thanks for being patient with it!

Of course, discussing these types of hymns is different than, say, considering the Santus chanted to the melody of a Beatles tune. It may be liturgical, but …

Or the Lord’s Prayer sung to the Jesus Christ Superstar tune “I Don’t Know How to Love Him” as we did in our parish for a while.

“Our Father… he’s a man, he’s just a man…” I couldn’t keep the lyrics straight and it drove me crazy – not to mention that it doesn’t scan properly with the words of the Lord’s Prayer.