Is the Inquisition a black mark on the Catholic Church?

[Memaw]

I didn’t know that Christopher Columbus and the other Spanish conquerors were Protestants?

I’m not talking about them and you know it. I’m talking about the ones that came over from Europe.

 

[Tomdstone]

I’m not talking about them and you know it. I’m talking about the ones that came over from Europe.

Christopher Columbus and the Roman Catholic Spanish conquerors came over from Europe.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

So the moral law changes from one time to another? The moral law is completely relative to the culture and the times in which it is being applied? Have the clergy of the Catholic Church worked hard to protect Catholics from the heresy of accepting artificial birth control for married couples with many children?

The moral law always remains the same, it is the circumstances that change. Today, the execution of heretics in itself is not a sin just as it wasn’t a sin back then, but the Church knows that to execute leaders of heresy today would cause scandal which is a separate sin.

The clergy, the vast majority anyway, have not worked hard at catechizing the faithful concerning the intrinsic evil of contraception. That is the fault of the individual clergy, not of the Church as a whole, since the Church has always taught from the Magisterium that contraception is a mortal sin.

 

[Tomdstone]

Today, the execution of heretics in itself is not a sin …

This is something that is held by ISIS.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

This is something that is held by ISIS.

Yes, I suppose so.

 

[Tomdstone]

Who was wrong for killing so many Native Americans when the Protestants first came to America and took it over. Calling THEM savages. Who taught the NA to scalp?? God Bless, Memaw

The people who did this were not really Protestant Christians. True Protestants follow the Bible. The people you are talking about were not real Protestants since they did not follow the Christian law found in Scripture to love your neighbor as yourself.

 

[Stephen168]

The people who did this were not really Protestant Christians. True Protestants follow the Bible. The people you are talking about were not real Protestants since they did not follow the Christian law found in Scripture to love your neighbor as yourself.

No True Scotsman

 

[phil19034]

Christopher Columbus and the Roman Catholic Spanish conquerors came over from Europe.

The Spanish Conquistadors CONVERTED most of the Native Americans they encountered. Yes, there were some wars and the Spanish did have a caste system, but they still converted the natives Americans and integrated them. In the Protestant US, we drove them to Canada or Mexico, killed them, or confined them to reservations.

The Age of Exploration was a time of great discovery, prosperity AND greed. However, no matter what our American, Canadian, or British history books say; the Spanish acted FAR more moral during that time to non-Europeans than the English or Americans did.

God Bless

 

[Rohzek]

The Spanish Conquistadors CONVERTED most of the Native Americans they encountered. Yes, there were some wars and the Spanish did have a caste system, but they still converted the natives Americans and integrated them. In the Protestant US, we drove them to Canada or Mexico, killed them, or confined them to reservations.

The Age of Exploration was a time of great discovery, prosperity AND greed. However, no matter what our American, Canadian, or British history books say; the Spanish acted FAR more moral during that time to non-Europeans than the English or Americans did.

God Bless

The Spanish actually enslaved the Native Americans, and Spanish priests only protested it when they began to convert. However, the Spanish only really began to stop enslaving the Native Americans when the vast majority died from disease and terrible work conditions. Even after the importation of Africans to various Spanish colonies, the Native Americans still were mired in poverty and robbed of their possessions. In short, the Spanish were no better than the British or Americans.

 

[Moses613]

Burning people at the stake for dissent and disagreement is wrong. Luther knew this and that’s why one of the objections to Luther in Exsurge Domine was that Heretics being burned at the stake was not against the will of the Holy Spirit. It was one of the biggest blunders of that document.

BUT… he did advocate setting synagogues on fire, and stated in On the Jews and their Lies that, “We are at fault in not slaying them.”

Sorry if this seems like trolling but sometimes I feel inspired to inject a Jewish perspective into these discussions in the spirit of the forum.

 

[dronald]

BUT… he did advocate setting synagogues on fire, and stated in On the Jews and their Lies that, “We are at fault in not slaying them.”

Sorry if this seems like trolling but sometimes I feel inspired to inject a Jewish perspective into these discussions in the spirit of the forum.

The difference I believe Moses, is that no Protestant has to justify Luther’s words, or the puritan’s, or the settlers who may have killed or called for killing because we don’t believe that they were the highest moral standard for all mankind.

If you’ve been following this thread I’m sure you’ve noticed that some Catholics have justified the burning of heretics in the past, even going so far as to say that it would be permissible now if the circumstances wouldn’t cause “scandal.” That’s because if the Church said it, or a Pope wrote it (btw the comment you’re replying to is the Papal Bull against Luther number 33) then it must be defended by the Catholic faithful.

The problem isn’t what Catholics did; it’s that Catholicism is supposed to be perfect in its pronouncements, so when I say “burning heretics was wrong” some Catholics won’t actually think so, including Ole Aquinas.

When one says “Here’s Luther being an idiot.” I can say, “Yeah you’re right, that was stupid.” And that’s what I do. Luther was wrong, Popes have been wrong, and councils have been wrong.

 

[Moses613]

Thanks for the informational post. Yes, I skimmed thru most of the rest of the thread. A little shocking, but my general feeling is that most of the Catholics that defend the Inquisition here are just totally deceived about the autos-da-fe and other terrors perpetrated during the Spanish Inquisition. That they only burned arch-heretics who secretly tried to convert faithful Catholics to Judaism is absurd and laughable. Yes, that’s what Torquemada and documents of the time claimed - OF COURSE! If you were caught secretly lighting candles Friday night in your basement - you were burned. That was enough proof you were a dangerous Jewish missionary.
I’m a sensitive person so I couldn’t even bring myself to follow the links that talk about how the official inquisition actually “moderated” or improved on what the rabble was doing. I might get nauseous.
I was under the impression that according to Catholics only papal statements made ex cathedra are infallible, but I guess that’s an oversimplification.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

BUT… he did advocate setting synagogues on fire, and stated in On the Jews and their Lies that, “We are at fault in not slaying them.”

Sorry if this seems like trolling but sometimes I feel inspired to inject a Jewish perspective into these discussions in the spirit of the forum.

And to be fair he changed back to his early view evidenced by his comment " we ought to treat them with Christian love and pray for them" yes his tract was wrong , Gods people aren’t perfect ,.

( p.s I am a Jew by race and it’s nice too see more on this forum .)

 

[SalusaSecondus]

BUT… he did advocate setting synagogues on fire, and stated in On the Jews and their Lies that, “We are at fault in not slaying them.”

Sorry if this seems like trolling but sometimes I feel inspired to inject a Jewish perspective into these discussions in the spirit of the forum.

Yes, all Lutherans known to me admit that Luther was wrong. We reject that particular teaching.

 

[Moses613]

And to be fair he changed back to his early view evidenced by his comment " we ought to treat them with Christian love and pray for them" yes his tract was wrong , Gods people aren’t perfect ,.

( p.s I am a Jew by race and it’s nice too see more on this forum .)

Thanks for the welcome. I was not aware Luther ever changed his stance post-Jews and their Lies. I would be interested to see the evidence.

PS I did know Lutherans repudiated these views of Luther but I was nonetheless pointing out the hypocrisy in Luther’s own stance as referenced.

 

[Catholic_farmer]

Killing someone because of their religion was as wrong then as it is now, no matter if it’s Catholic Spainards, Salem Puritans, or ISIS.

For those who were killed because of their convictions, there were plenty on both sides (Protestant and Catholic), so I don’t think we need to count the dead and play the blame game.

Not all those killed were because of strong convictions about their beliefs. No one had developed a way to recognize or care for those with mental illness. Demonic possession was the assumption when someone was very different from the norm. Many of the so-called “witches” may have been mentally ill, either from genetics or from eating foods with hallucinogens.

Others were killed because they belonged to minority groups long regarded with suspicion because of common prejudices at the time. Regardless of their reasons, it was wrong.

Has the Church improved since those dark ages? Why, yes, very much so, for a variety of reasons.

Has society improved? That’s debatable. Although societies have stopped outright killing of the mentally ill, ignoring them and leaving them to die on the street is pretty bad. But, that is society; not the Church.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

Thanks for the welcome. I was not aware Luther ever changed his stance post-Jews and their Lies. I would be interested to see the evidence.

PS I did know Lutherans repudiated these views of Luther but I was nonetheless pointing out the hypocrisy in Luther’s own stance as referenced.

The comment I quoted was from his last sermon , in which he quotes his earlier anti Judaism quotes then makes the above commen( we should pray for them " etc )t to show that he had changed his view on persecuting Judaists , and to show that he loved the race of Jews , see his tract Jesus is a Jew for his lifetime view of the ethnic group the Jews .

 

[phil19034]

Thanks for the informational post. Yes, I skimmed thru most of the rest of the thread. A little shocking, but my general feeling is that most of the Catholics that defend the Inquisition here are just totally deceived about the autos-da-fe and other terrors perpetrated during the Spanish Inquisition. That they only burned arch-heretics who secretly tried to convert faithful Catholics to Judaism is absurd and laughable. Yes, that’s what Torquemada and documents of the time claimed - OF COURSE! If you were caught secretly lighting candles Friday night in your basement - you were burned. That was enough proof you were a dangerous Jewish missionary.
I’m a sensitive person so I couldn’t even bring myself to follow the links that talk about how the official inquisition actually “moderated” or improved on what the rabble was doing. I might get nauseous.
I was under the impression that according to Catholics only papal statements made ex cathedra are infallible, but I guess that’s an oversimplification.

Moses -
With all due respect, the Church didn’t do this to the Jews. Many lay Catholics did, but not the Church.

The Inquisition only had jurisdiction over Baptized and/or Confirmed Catholics.

The laity became xenophobe during that time, yes. And lay people performed many horrors to Jews, Protestants and even honest converts to Catholicism.

A major reason the Spanish Inquisition was called was to stop the mob violence and lynch mobs.

The Church tried to save people, not kill them. If a defendant was executed, the priests viewed that as a failure

Again, I highly recommend the following talks

saintjoe.com/products/fire-and-sword-crusade-inquisition-0690e84e-69c5-43f9-abf1-7d1807684372?taxon_id=27

shop.catholic.com/catholic-digital-media/the-real-story-of-the-inquisition-set.html

I will do deny that individual Catholics (who were not practicing their faith) did horrible things during that time. However, the idea that it was lead and carried out by the Church was created by 17th, 18th, and 19th century anti-Catholics.

And there may have even been some individual priests who were bad, but the Church herself did not commit the reported horrors of that time.

Blaming the Church for the actions of individual Catholics would be akin to blaming the entire Jewish Religion for killing Jesus and His followers in the 1st and 2nd centuries. Or akin to saying the Jewish religion doesn’t believe God is real because many atheists identify themselves as Jewish.

God Bless

 

[phil19034]

Has society improved? That’s debatable. Although societies have stopped outright killing of the mentally ill, ignoring them and leaving them to die on the street is pretty bad. But, that is society; not the Church.

Today, society simply tries to kill the mentally ill, handicap, and/or “unwanted” before they are born and are pushing to kill the “unwanted” when they are old and/or sick.

This is something that Catholics during the Dark Ages would never have condoned in society.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Thanks for the informational post. Yes, I skimmed thru most of the rest of the thread. A little shocking, but my general feeling is that most of the Catholics that defend the Inquisition here are just totally deceived about the autos-da-fe and other terrors perpetrated during the Spanish Inquisition. That they only burned arch-heretics who secretly tried to convert faithful Catholics to Judaism is absurd and laughable. Yes, that’s what Torquemada and documents of the time claimed - OF COURSE! If you were caught secretly lighting candles Friday night in your basement - you were burned. That was enough proof you were a dangerous Jewish missionary.
I’m a sensitive person so I couldn’t even bring myself to follow the links that talk about how the official inquisition actually “moderated” or improved on what the rabble was doing. I might get nauseous.

Moses, thank you for your post. I am very glad you are here and speaking up. Like you, I have not been able to read through this thread and follow the links without getting sick. My love for the Jewish people and knowledge of what the Church has done throughout history makes me wonder what in the world is being taught these days and why we (as Christians) are not constantly on our knees asking forgiveness from you (as Jews).

A bit of revisionist history goes a long way, yes?

I once had a conversation with a rabbi friend. It was Holy Week, moving closely towards Good Friday. I said, ‘So, what are your plans for the weekend?’ The reply? ‘Going into my house and locking the doors behind me.’

It was said a bit in jest, but also sadly, knowing the long hard history we have together.