Is the J in Many Hebrew Names/Places Prounounced Y?

[GEddie]

Actually, it’s the letter yod. The letter ayin in the Semitic languages stands for a voiced pharyngeal fricative, which has absolutely no equivalent in English.

Correction taken.

I had seen the name Yeshua in Hebrew, and remembered an ayin, but not that that letter was in fact at the end.

ICXC NIKA

 

[patrick457]

What evidence do we have for iotacism or etacism in this period? Demetrius’ On Style (probably C2nd BCE) shows no consciousness of such coalescence, nor does Dionysius Thrax (C2nd BCE); Dionysius of Halicarnassus (late C1st BCE), on the other hand, describes the vowels as very distinct forms. None of these sources is κοινη, however.

Still, in terms of later usage, this summary describes etacism as evidenced in writing (via η/ει interchanges) from the late C2nd CE, and lists individual interchanges (ει/ι, αι/ε, ο/ω, υ/οι) of other vowels rather than the generalised assimilation of most forms to ι.

Also, W. Sidney Allen comments of οι that “diphthongal pronunciation is clearly indicated at least until Roman times” (Vox Graeca, p.80), and he places ι for οι in the C3rd CE.

While individual versions no doubt varied by regional accent (especially given the non-native aspects of κοινη), Jesus’ own time seems too early for such changes, although a comparison with C1st Hebrew sound forms might be interesting.

Maybe I used the wrong term. Maybe I should have used ‘monophthongalization’?

The PDF already shows αι ai being confused with epsilon ε in an Egyptian papyrus from 154 BC and for early 2nd century examples (letters from the Judaean desert: Bar Kochba’s and Babatha’s). As for οι (oi), I’ll correct myself: you’re right, it wasn’t completely iotacized yet. As the PDF notes, it was at this time pronounced like ypsilon (υ), another letter which eventually iotacized. Koine οι/υ is a ‘close front rounded vowel’ (to give some idea on how to pronounce it, say i ‘ee’ but while rounding the lips as if you’re saying u ‘oo’; to anyone who knows German, it’s basically the ü in German über). You’re right eta is

So, Ioudaioi would be pronounced like You-day-ü.

 

[Mystophilus]

‘monophthongalization’?

The PDF already shows αι ai being confused with epsilon ε in an Egyptian papyrus from 154 BC and for early 2nd century examples (letters from the Judaean desert: Bar Kochba’s and Babatha’s).

Notably, the earliest (Egyptian) one predates Dionysius of Halicarnassus’ statement that the diphthong is in force in the C1st BCE, that α and ι are unmixed (ακεραστοι) in Αθηναιων (On Literary Composition, in his discussion of Thucydides). The full monophthongalization at this point does seem thus to be quite non-Greek: non-native, non-literary κοινη usage.

Allen comments that “a monophthongal development [from αι as a true diphthong] took place, giving a quality [long mid front ε]; this is first revealed by spellings with e from about 125 A.D., and especially after 150” (p.71). The change in native usage might have been delayed by the effect of poetry, αι being long and ε being short.

So, Ioudaioi would be pronounced like You-day-ü.

I have been trying to find out when this came in. Having cited earlier Boeotian dialectical and occasional Egyptian usage of υ for οι, Allen points to that change becoming widespread some time in the C1st CE (and it is visible in the Library of Pantainos at the end of the C1st). While Sturtevant (Pronunciation of Greek and Latin, p.146) comments upon the Latinisation of οι as oe in the C1st BCE, he adds that the form soon became so traditional as not to be reflective of current usage; he then describes υ for οι as common from the C3rd CE.

In other words, it seems that precisely how one pronounced these terms depended very much upon date and location.

 

[patrick457]

Notably, the earliest (Egyptian) one predates Dionysius of Halicarnassus’ statement that the diphthong is in force in the C1st BCE, that α and ι are unmixed (ακεραστοι) in Αθηναιων (On Literary Composition, in his discussion of Thucydides). The full monophthongalization at this point does seem thus to be quite non-Greek: non-native, non-literary κοινη usage.

Allen comments that “a monophthongal development [from αι as a true diphthong] took place, giving a quality [long mid front ε]; this is first revealed by spellings with e from about 125 A.D., and especially after 150” (p.71). The change in native usage might have been delayed by the effect of poetry, αι being long and ε being short.

I have been trying to find out when this came in. Having cited earlier Boeotian dialectical and occasional Egyptian usage of υ for οι, Allen points to that change becoming widespread some time in the C1st CE (and it is visible in the Library of Pantainos at the end of the C1st). While Sturtevant (Pronunciation of Greek and Latin, p.146) comments upon the Latinisation of οι as oe in the C1st BCE, he adds that the form soon became so traditional as not to be reflective of current usage; he then describes υ for οι as common from the C3rd CE.

In other words, it seems that precisely how one pronounced these terms depended very much upon date and location.

True. You have to remember that these grammarians were prescribing ‘proper’ Greek, which does not necessarily reflect the Greek actually spoken by people. They looked at classical (Attic) Greek as the ‘correct’ form of Greek and used it as their model; colloquial Koine and the way it was spoken (the pronunciation changes, etc.) was pretty much considered to be some sort of embarrassment unworthy of attention.

As for pronunciation: AFAIK Randall Buth (of Living Koine fame) argued that manuscript evidence show the same sounds being confused in different areas. So while it may well be true that there some regional differences in pronunciation, at the same time, the phonemic structure was the same across different regions.

As you probably already know, Greek pronunciation in the 1st century is really a controversial subject.

 

[Mystophilus]

True. You have to remember that these grammarians were prescribing ‘proper’ Greek, which does not necessarily reflect the Greek actually spoken by people. They looked at classical (Attic) Greek as the ‘correct’ form of Greek and used it as their model; colloquial Koine and the way it was spoken (the pronunciation changes, etc.) was pretty much considered to be some sort of embarrassment unworthy of attention.

There is the potential for this, certainly, especially given the non-native usage of κοινη, but Dion H explicitly states that he is writing a guide on effective contemporary rhetoric, based upon “unaffected” (αποιητον) spoken use. Since, on the other hand, Sextus Empiricus describes αι as a (still-individualised) monophthong in the mid-C2nd CE, that gives us a two-century window for the change within native Greek. Finer placement seems rather difficult to achieve.

As for pronunciation: AFAIK Randall Buth (of Living Koine fame) argued that manuscript evidence show the same sounds being confused in different areas. So while it may well be true that there some regional differences in pronunciation, at the same time, the phonemic structure was the same across different regions.

Well, across some regions, anyway: that summary is also Buth’s, and it shows considerable variation in time and location. We also have the developments in the native Greek dialects, and their individual engagements with κοινη: many of the sound changes which became common in κοινη had showed up earlier in Boeotian.

It’s all very messy, and yet another reason why I prefer Greek writers of Greek.

 

[patrick457]

It’s all very messy, and yet another reason why I prefer Greek writers of Greek.

It kinda reminds me a bit of that issue in ancient Japanese as to exactly when the p- sound became an f- (-hahifuheho), and just what the original pronunciation of /s/ was. (Was it ts-? Or z-? Or ch-?) Ah, linguistics.

Correction taken.

I had seen the name Yeshua in Hebrew, and remembered an ayin, but not that that letter was in fact at the end.

ICXC NIKA

Don’t you hate it when you had to read right to left?