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carlos19
Guest
I noticed that in my parish, that the Kyrie Eleison was omitted at least during the last two masses. Is it omitted during Christmas?
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OraLabora
Guest
No, not specifically. There are several penitential rites and it’s up to the discretion of the celebrant which one is used.
However if the penitential rite is the rite of sprinkling with holy water, the Kyrie Eleison is never used; either the Asperges Me is used, or in Paschal time, the Vidi Aquam.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
The Kyrie, eleison is omitted when Penitential Act C is chosen, or when asperges is done instead. If the Confiteor (Penitential Act A) or Penitential Act B is chosen, then the Kyrie, eleison is used, followed by the Gloria.
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OraLabora
Guest
Unless of course it is a weekday Mass, and it isn’t a feast or solemnity, in which case the Gloria is omitted.
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ProVobis
Guest
Think I need a MS Visio flow chart to understand you guys.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
Or Advent. Or Lent. I took it for a given.
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JGMendes4049
Guest
Or the Commemoration of All the Faithful Departed (All Souls). Or Masses for the Dead.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
I was thinking about including that, but I didn’t want to consult the missal.Or the Commemoration of All the Faithful Departed (All Souls). Or Masses for the Dead.
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carlos19
Guest
all we did was Formula A the confiteor
I am so used the praying lord have mercy…christ have mercy,.afterwards
I am so used the praying lord have mercy…christ have mercy,.afterwards
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Phemie
Guest
And you should have following the general confession formula. As indicated in “Celebrate in Song”, Canada’s new book for the new translation: “The Kyrie, eleison invocations follow, unless they have just occurred in a formula of the Penitential Act.”
But a priest can slip up just as much as any of us. Yesterday, after the Welcoming Rite of Baptism which normally replaces the Greeting and Penitential Rite, the priest got to the chair and started Mass as though nothing had just happened.
He’s also confused by the new Missal and at the Mystery of Faith, after we’ve acclaimed “We proclaim your Death, O Lord…”, he recites the third option for the acclamation as though it were part of of the prayer after the acclamation. We suspect he’s not differentiating between bold and normal text without his glasses.
More troubling is his refusal to use the word ‘clergy’ in the Eucharistic Prayer. Of course he always uses EPII but when it comes to the words “together with Benedict, our Pope and Peter our Bishop and all the clergy” he replaces “clergy” with “God’s holy people” thereby totally changing the meaning of the prayer.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
It was likely a mistake. Yes, the Kyrie, eleison is always done when the Confiteor is done.
That sounds like a bit more than an innocent mistake. Stuff like this creates just as much, if not more, of the same clericalism that the proponents of it say they’re trying to squash, because it is depriving the people of the true meaning of the prayer.
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carlos19
Guest
at first I thought it was a mistake but it has been at least two sundays in a row maybe three
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puzzleannie
Guest
if Christmas Mass began with the Christmas proclamation that goes directly to the Gloria, otherwise assume the priest is using one of the other penitential rites.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
Um. I thought the Christmas Proclamation wasn’t actually part of mass.
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DJJG
Guest
No it’s not omitted during the Christmas season; however our priest has been forgetting it (the Kyrie) too, off and on, since the new translation started. He says it’s because he is having a tough time getting used to the new missal; everything is in a different place and it gets a little confusing.*** :hypno:***
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carlos19
Guest
OK I am not sure if I am making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Now two separate priests, the original one that I referred to in my post and another one at the same parish are not saying the kyre eleison after the penitential rite prayer.
Also one thing that I noticed is that we used to say the Nicene creed now we just recite the Apostles creed.
I wonder if this is part of the new mass as well. Should I just forget about it and move on?
Now two separate priests, the original one that I referred to in my post and another one at the same parish are not saying the kyre eleison after the penitential rite prayer.
Also one thing that I noticed is that we used to say the Nicene creed now we just recite the Apostles creed.
I wonder if this is part of the new mass as well. Should I just forget about it and move on?
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FrDavid96
Guest
Are you sure you’re not just “missing” it somehow?
I’ve checked the Missal. It’s confusing the way it’s printed; especially since there are an additional 7 forms approved for use in the US included in an appendix.
Are you saying the words “Lord have mercy” at all?
In some of the options, it’s not quite clear that the Kyrie is being said because the invocation part takes up the bulk of the form. It’s there in the written form, but I can see it not-being-noticed when it’s prayed aloud.
One thing you might want to consider is to ask the priest what he’s doing. I’m not suggesting you “challenge” him on this–quite the contrary. You might consider saying to him something like “I don’t understand what this means about the options, could you explain it to me?” or “I can’t follow along in my own book, could you give me some direction?” You get the idea.
It can be very confusing at times, using the new Missal. The texts are sometimes arranged differently and priests need some time to learn the Missal itself (I mean the actual book, not just the words).
To your last question: yes. It is now permitted to use the Apostles Creed as a substitute for the Nicene at any Mass that requires the Creed.
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Frosty
Guest
Yes Father , even priests who spent an enormous amount of time preparing themselves for the new translation and who are sticklers for detail can be confused at times by the Missal. My pastor had prepared us extremely well for the first Sunday in Advent and the Sunday Masses went without a hitch. Then, at the daily Mass the next day, he left out the Kyrie. I thought he had simply forgotten, although that was most unlike him. The same thing happenned the next morning and the next. The Confetior but no Kyrie. I was going to be in the parish hall the rest of that morning so I popped into the pastors’ office and after some chit chat, I said that I was wondering why he hadn’t used the Kyrie all week. He replied that he had been studying the Missal after the previous Sunday’s Masses and it appeared to him that the Kyrie was an option and should be omitted if the Confetior was used. Which surprised him but he wanted to be sure he was doing the right thing.
I must have had a disbelieving look on my face because he told me to stay right where I was and wait for him. Off he went and came back in a few minutes with the Missal. He opened it up to the relevant page and sure enough it seemed like he was correct. It was confusing because the instructions for the Kyrie were in small print at the top of the page, almost buried under the large print of the rest of the Penitential forms and were not clear. We mused over this for awhile then my pastor decided to write an e-mail to the diocesan Director of Liturgy to find out if he was misunderstanding the instructions in the Missal and exactly what he should be doing. A couple of hours later he came looking for me and said that he had just heard back from the Director and that he had in fact misunderstood. He looked so sheepish when he told me that I felt badly for him. I knew how diligently he had been working on preparing for the new translation and how hard he is on himself when he makes a mistake. He even has a CD on saying the Mass with the new translation that he keeps in his car and plays it whenever he goes anywhere, saying the words along with it. He has been doing this since last August!
Personally, I can’t even begin to imagine how difficult it has been for our priests in learning the new wording and instructions in the Missal and basically tossing out what they did for years previously. I was at a Mass last week celebrated by our Bishop. As he began chanting the doxology at the end of the Eucharistic prayer, he went completly blank after "through Him with Him and in Him’. It took several seconds until the deacon whispered to him before he continued. At luncheon afterwards, the Bishop told us that he often feels completely drained by the end of Mass because of the effort it takes not to make even the slightest mistake in the wording or pronounciation or to leave out something inadvertently. I would think that most priests feel the same.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
I think the easiest fix for this is to nix all the Penitential Acts in the next edition of the Roman Missal (whenever that is) except for the Confiteor–and asperges when customary–so that the Kyrie will be used at every mass, and then no one will have to worry about the 900,000 different options for everything. It’s so confusing sometimes. “Is this the Roman Rite?”
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carlos19
Guest
Hello everyone, I brought it up to my pastor and he stated that the Kyrie should be included. It was a simple oversight. I approached it very respectfully as suggested on this board. Thank you all for your advice.
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