Is the layman equipped with Sacred and Written Tradition any less than clergy?

[rcwitness]

Is the Layman able to know and uphold the Deposit of Faith (Sacred and Written Tradition), guided by the Holy Spirit, just as clergy?

 

[rcwitness]

No. I’m not coming from a Protestant point of view at all.

I just don’t trust priests to always represent what they’ve learned in seminary. Plus, priests don’t make up the Magisterium

 

[Bookcat]

Is the Layman able to know and uphold the Deposit of Faith (Sacred and Written Tradition), guided by the Holy Spirit, just as clergy?

The “just as” part is where I would note that Bishops and the Pope have a very particular charism …so I would not put it that way.

But yes a Christian who is also a lay person can very well know and uphold the deposit of Faith and be guided by the Holy Spirit (in a way in harmony with the Teaching Office of the Church- which is guided by the Holy Spirit in a very particular way - of course).

Aquila and Priscilla being wonderful examples from Acts.

 

[rcwitness]

The “just as” part is where I would note that Bishops and the Pope have a very particular charism …so I would not put it that way.

But yes a Christian who is also a lay person can very well know and uphold the deposit of Faith and be guided by the Holy Spirit (in a way in harmony with the Teaching Office of the Church- which is guided by the Holy Spirit in a very particular way - of course).

Aquila and Priscilla being wonderful examples from Acts.

Yes! I agree that the Magisterium (Bishop of Rome/College of Bishops) are necessary to confirm the Deposit of Faith throughout the ages. In that sense, those clergy are equipped with a gift greater than laity.

 

[rcwitness]

No. I’m not coming from a Protestant point of view at all.

I just don’t trust priests to always represent what they’ve learned in seminary. Plus, priests don’t make up the Magisterium

I’m not disrespecting priests at all. I am doing them a service, actually. They are spread thin, and cannot bear the burden of educating and directing everyone all the time. Neither can they do what the Holy Spirit does! But I do not neglect to seek their counsel! I just don’t place all my trust in them, nor would I think a good priest would want us to.

 

[Bookcat]

Splendid document on the vocation of the Laity

w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_30121988_christifideles-laici.html

 

[MichaelP3]

Is the Layman able to know and uphold the Deposit of Faith (Sacred and Written Tradition), guided by the Holy Spirit, just as clergy?

Many may say I am wrong for not having the “fullness of the truth” but I am from a tradition were the minimum to preach is 7 years study (including an official Masters although many go to PhD). Not saying this answeres the question but some other denominations do take studying and learning Hebrew and Greek quite seriously as a respondent to your post (did not) pointed out.

 

[Bookcat]

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a3.htm#III

 

[Bookcat]

Of course each persons background will differ…

Just think of a “Dr. Scott Hahn” or other like scholar.

They rather surpass many a Christian (laity or ordained) in their being “equipped”.

Yes a Priest can often have more theological background than a lay person (given their years of study) but ordination does not prevent their being wrong on this or that matter (or just heading off to heresy - think of Arius) or make them correct all the time either. Nor does a lay person being even a great scholar prevent them from getting something wrong.

One can even have say an unlettered old laywoman who holds fast to the Faith - very able to hold and profess the faith before a Bishop who has departed from it (think Nestorius).

All…Priests, Laity, Bishops, Religious, Hermits etc…can know and hold and live and profess the Faith - and are all to do so in union with the Teaching Office of the Church…

 

[PaulfromIowa]

Is the Layman able to know and uphold the Deposit of Faith (Sacred and Written Tradition), guided by the Holy Spirit, just as clergy?

I would never say that any individuals, be they laymen or clergy, are individually guided by the Holy Spirit regarding the Deposit of Faith. Christ left us a Church as a teaching authority.

 

[Bookcat]

I would never say that any individuals, be they laymen or clergy, are individually guided by the Holy Spirit regarding the Deposit of Faith. Christ left us a Church as a teaching authority.

Not in a way contrary to the Teaching Authority of the Church - but it is important to clarify that one can say a Christian can be guided by the Holy Spirit in the reading and understanding of Sacred Scripture or in other knowing and living of the faith.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

We are all part of the Common Priesthood through Baptism. But we laity are not Consecrated. We are not formed and educated such as a Priest is.

I hear your argument constantly…I dont trust my Priests…and believe me, in my Diocese its a sentiment being echoed for reasons other then the Deposit of Faith.

Sorry but that is an issue you need to deal with and resolve. Its an argument invading and destroying the Church from within.

Look at What happens Sunday, We go to Mass, hear scripture, then a Homily. There are 2 Liturgies,
the Liturgy of the Word
the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

In the Sacraments

The Priest also follows a form of Liturgy.

What exactly dont you trust about a Priest or the Clergy.

Being extremely busy or stretched thin is no valid reason to distrust.

You are doing the clergy a grave disservice suggesting they might get it wrong, and you are scandalising others with this attitude.
It is the Bishop’s job to Sheperd his flock, his Parish Priests help him do this.

Question, have you ever been given wtong information about yhe Deposit of Faith by a Priest?

 

[Bookcat]

We are all part of the Common Priesthood through Baptism.

Quite correct!

But we laity are not Consecrated.

The word your looking for is “ordained”. We are consecrated.

We are not formed and educated such as a Priest is.

…some are even far more educated than many Priests.

See post above.forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14839597&postcount=11

And a particular layperson can be correct about a particular question or be more educated on a particular question than a particular Priest. And of course a particular Priest may be more educated than another Priest that or a particular layperson - on a particular matter.

 

[joeybaggz]

Agreed that it is not the Catholic view. And attending seminary for a minimum of five years qualifies one to comment on and teach/explain Sacred Scripture. No argument there. To the OP, I would say that at the very least all validly ordained RCC clergy as to be listened to with a fair and open mind. I would however say that I have had 60 years of education in Catholicism, reading, listening, studying Scripture and the Church, its history and teaching. I think I have a valuable contribution to make where and when I find myself in a position to explain and defend Scripture and the teaching of the RCC.

I believe that a lay person, with some significant background in living the experience of the Church is qualified to offer a perspective that may be lacking in the clergy. Understand that I am NOT saying a lay person is qualified to interpret Scripture or the validity of the deposit of faith; that is the proper function of the Magesterium and its bishops and priests. A faithful and knowledgeable lay person is however, capable of offering “testimony” as to how the Catholic experience in all forms contributes to a life well lived in the modern world. To disregard the laity and its valuable contribution to the understanding of the significance and truth of the RCC is the height of clerical arrogance.

Shalom

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Everyone is capable of thinking for themselves, but in order to be authoritative in any living tradition, you need the official backing of that tradition. A lay person doesn’t have that.

In other words, listen to your priest.

Even if the priest clearly ignores Holy Tradition and Holy Scripture? A lay person is not allowed to speak up about it? What about St. Paul’s example with St. Peter, correcting him in his error? (maybe that’s a bad example, because maybe St. Paul is considered a bishop or something? They say St. Peter was the first pope. )

 

[Roseeurekacross]

My Priest used the word consecrated. Deliberately last week when we discussed this. He is consecrated, I am not. How do I become consecrated? Priesthood, religious order that includes consecration, hermit, virgin consecrations. Thats it. So I will disagree with you on that point, bookcat.

My Clergy are sticklers for correct terminology. Even in the Aussie Vernacular!

We can, in my opinion, have a PhD in Theology, however without formation in Clergy, its a different degree.

Reading CAF , whats going on in USA that laity is so distrustful their clergy will get the Deposit of Faith wrong or anything else?

 

[Jestersage]

Reading CAF , whats going on in USA that laity is so distrustful their clergy will get the Deposit of Faith wrong or anything else?

May have to be because the Catholics on America are worried about “not being conservative”, and some are not agreeing to the “liberalness” of Pope Francis? And that Evangelical thoughts are quite influential here? And that we have bishops that’s wording can be interpret as going against doctrine? And that a certain Archbishop in United States implied one should not obey the Pope?

Factor with reminders of Alexander VI, and suddenly you have people not trusting the clergy are not "corrupted’ in a different form.

 

[Reuben_J]

We are all part of the Common Priesthood through Baptism. But we laity are not Consecrated. We are not formed and educated such as a Priest is.

I hear your argument constantly…I dont trust my Priests…and believe me, in my Diocese its a sentiment being echoed for reasons other then the Deposit of Faith.

Sorry but that is an issue you need to deal with and resolve. Its an argument invading and destroying the Church from within.

Look at What happens Sunday, We go to Mass, hear scripture, then a Homily. There are 2 Liturgies,
the Liturgy of the Word
the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

In the Sacraments

The Priest also follows a form of Liturgy.

What exactly dont you trust about a Priest or the Clergy.

Being extremely busy or stretched thin is no valid reason to distrust.

You are doing the clergy a grave disservice suggesting they might get it wrong, and you are scandalising others with this attitude.
It is the Bishop’s job to Sheperd his flock, his Parish Priests help him do this.

Question, have you ever been given wtong information about yhe Deposit of Faith by a Priest?

Well said.

Laity and clergy have different roles to play in the Church. The laity have been more active since Vatican II but the clergy are specifically priests of God and therefore ministers of the Church. Even more so as Catholic priests where they have totally given themselves to Christ by virtue of their vocation.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Reading CAF , whats going on in USA that laity is so distrustful their clergy will get the Deposit of Faith wrong or anything else?

People in USA always like to question authority, and the Church is no exception. We don’t have a big tradition of respecting and deferring to the priests’ judgment as some other countries do. And a lot of conservatives don’t like it when the priests aren’t as conservative as they are. In addition, with so many Protestants around insisting that you don’t need the priest and you can just read the Bible and go straight to Jesus, some of the thinking tends to rub off on Catholics, especially when said Catholic encounters a priest espousing some view (such as more tolerance for gays or illegal immigrants) that said Catholic personally doesn’t agree with.

 

[rcwitness]

Yes, priests are generally more educated in Tradition and Scripture. And I definitely believe in seeking their counsel in matters. What I do not believe in, is acting like we aren’t able to know the faith, so just blindly trusting them against our own knowledge.

Asking priests for support of their instructions, when our conscience urges us, is Godly. And no priest (or laity) should discourage that.