J
Juxtaposer
Guest
Is Jesus actually being sacrificed at the Mass, or is His sacrifice being partaken of?
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M
Minerva
Guest
the latter, though that’s not really the terminology I’m familiar with. The Mass IS Christ’s sacrifice, not an additional sacrifice. For Christ’s sacrifice is outside of time and so is always present to us, always saving us. When you are at Mass you are on Calvary. Unfortunately many “modern” parishes do all they can to downplay this wondrous miracle and would have you believe that Mass is just a nice meal Jesus had with his friends.
J
Juxtaposer
Guest
Why is it necessary to take part in Christ’s sacrifice? Why must one continue to put Him on the altar and give Him to God for our sins when it’s already been done?
C
Cherub
Guest
We don’t put him on there. We go to witness that he is there. We go to be with him, to indicate that we understand what he is doing for us. We offer up this ongoing suffering that exists outside of time (just because we can’t see it anymore and to us it is “historic” doesn’t mean it’s all over. This sacrifice is in God’s time.)
J
Juxtaposer
Guest
Why do you ask God to accept the sacrifice then if He already did? Is it rhetorical?
J
JimG
Guest
The Mass is not* a * sacrifice; it is *the * sacrifice. We go there to join with Him, to join our sacrifice to His, to join him in offering the one sacrifice to the Father. And by receiving his body and blood, we become one with him and with one another, a perfect sacrifice of praise.
“On that day you will know
that I am in my Father,
and you in me, and I in you.”
John 15:20
JimG
“On that day you will know
that I am in my Father,
and you in me, and I in you.”
John 15:20
JimG
J
JimG
Guest
It’s not rhetorical. The sacrifice of Jesus is eternal, but we are temporal. At every Mass we can ask the Father to accept the sacrifice of his son for our sins. Because while He doesn’t exist in time, we do. So while the Father “already accepted” the sacrifice, he also continues to accept it, for our sake. And like St. Paul, we can add our own sufferings every day to the sacrifice of Christ, thereby making them pleasing to the Father.
JimG
T
triciafrancess
Guest
Christ made the one and only sacrifice that is acceptable to God for the forgiveness of sins. Through the holy mass, the priest offers that one sacrifice. No more sacrifices are required – just that one ultimate sacrifice.
God is omnipresent and omnipotent, so the fact that it is offered at different times and different places doesn’t affect the oneness of the sacrifice. It’s retroactive, proactive, and ever-active.
Hope that helps.
Are you coming from a protestant background where the concept of God’s existence outside of time and space isn’t fully formed or well explained?
Tricia Frances
J
jeffreedy789
Guest
another thing, too, regarding why we ask Him to accept the sacrifice. i’ve discovered that much, if not MOST, of prayer is simply agreeing with God. in other words, when i pray ‘lead us not into temptation’, it’s not because He would have if i hadn’t prayed that. it’s that i’m learning to agree with Him that He DOESN’T lead us into temptation. so much of prayer is like this, and in the mass, we ask Him to accept the sacrifice, in a sense, acknowledging that He DOES accept the sacrifice.
when i pray for my brother, i’m not suggesting anything to God that He didn’t already WANT to do, and probably already planned. in fact, today i was at mass, and i felt God prompting me to stay a bit and pray. i stayed. and i felt His Spirit move in my heart, and it prompted me to ask Him to work in my heart to make me desire to call on Him and seek Him so that He could come and live in me more completely. in other words, He called ME to ask Him to move in ME to call on HIM to work in ME. did you follow all that? i barely do, and i was THERE.
anyway, it was an example, i think, of the ‘agreement’ that i think most prayer truly is.
when i pray for my brother, i’m not suggesting anything to God that He didn’t already WANT to do, and probably already planned. in fact, today i was at mass, and i felt God prompting me to stay a bit and pray. i stayed. and i felt His Spirit move in my heart, and it prompted me to ask Him to work in my heart to make me desire to call on Him and seek Him so that He could come and live in me more completely. in other words, He called ME to ask Him to move in ME to call on HIM to work in ME. did you follow all that? i barely do, and i was THERE.
anyway, it was an example, i think, of the ‘agreement’ that i think most prayer truly is.
J
Juxtaposer
Guest
I’m coming from an Evangelical background, so a lot of things aren’t explained.
M
metal1633
Guest
Ok I answered this for you on another thread. Here it is again…
You asked…
My Answer…
Not continual sacrifices (plural) but rather say a Perpetual Sacrifice (singular) The Lord commanded a Perpetual Sacrifice for Sin. Our Lords Sacrifice fullfils the OT requirement for a Perpetual Sacrifice. He is a Preist FOREVER after the Order of Melchizedek. He perpetually offers His ONE Sacrifice, The Same Sacrifice of the Cross. The Same Sacrifice of the Lords Supper, the Eucharist. He is the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world. His Sacrifice is Eternal not temporal. WHY A Priest of the Order of Melchizedek?? Melchizedek offered Bread and Wine. The Clean Oblation offered by the Church which the Prophet Malachi spoke of. When you partake of the Eucharist, you partake of the very same Sacrifice. Not a differant one or even another of the same kind but the very same one. We are ONE Body and Partake of ONE Loaf which is the Body of Christ. Christ Broke the Bread and handed it to His Disciples. He is STILL handing the SAME Bread to His Disciples. From Jesus to Peter and John and the Others to us. When we go to Mass we are going to the upper room.
J
Juxtaposer
Guest
Could you give me Biblical evidence for this claim?
metal1633:
Also, who’s Melchizedek?
A
asquared
Guest
I find it hard to believe that an Evangelical bible Christian would ask who is Melchizedek. A combination priest and king, he was the ideal ruler of Israel according to later Jewish thought, king of Salem, early name for Jerusalem, priest of the most high God. After Abraham defeated the kings of the east Melchizedek gave Abraham bread and wine and his blessing. In turn, Abraham tithed the loot. The writer of Hebrews picked up this idealization of the priestly and kingly offices and spoke of Jesus as a priest in the order of Melchizedek (words still part of the ordination rite). Gen 14:18, Psalm 110:4, Hebrews 5-7 Everyone in the Bible, Willam P. Barker)
Thus Melchizedek is a type of Christ.
Thus Melchizedek is a type of Christ.
J
Juxtaposer
Guest
Evangelicals place a much lower emphesis on the OT than the NT. I hadn’t heard of typology until I started learning about Catholic theology.
B
Bill_Rutland
Guest
Hi Jux,
A good question. The Mass in general and the Eucharist in particular is a “true and living” sacrifice, but presented in an “un-bloody manner” under the accidents of Bread and Wine.
It must be remembered that there are two aspects to every sacrifice, the killing of the victim and the offering of the victim. We see this in St. Paul’s words to the Corinthians:
*Clear out the old yeast, so that you may become a fresh batch of dough, inasmuch as you are unleavened. For our paschal lamb, Christ, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. *(1 Corinthians 5:7-8)
Notice that St. Paul says that Jesus Christ our Pascal Lamb “has been sacrificed,” past tense. Then he says “let us celebrate the feast,” present tense.
Turning to Hebrews chapter 7 we read:
*Those priests *[the Levitical priesthood]*were many because they were prevented by death from remaining in office, but he, because he remains forever, has a priesthood that does not pass away. Therefore, he is always able to save those who approach God through him, since he lives forever to make intercession for them. It was fitting that we should have such a high priest: holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, higher than the heavens. He has no need, as did the high priests, to offer sacrifice day after day, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did that once for all when he offered himself. For the law appoints men subject to weakness to be high priests, but the word of the oath, which was taken after the law, appoints a son, who has been made perfect forever. *(Hebrews 7:23-28)
Notice that while it dose say here that Jesus offered Himself as a sacrifice once and for all, the text makes an important distinction. The sacrifice has been completed, but Jesus, our Great High Priest is constantly interceding on our behalf to God the Father, “ He lives forever to make intercession.”
So it is here that we must ask, “How does a High Priest make intercession?” He makes it by offering up the sacrifice to God. Hebrews shows us this:
*According to the law almost everything is purified by blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Therefore, it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified by these rites, but the heavenly things themselves by better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter into a sanctuary made by hands, a copy of the true one, but heaven itself, that he might now appear before God on our behalf. Not that he might offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters each year into the sanctuary with blood that is not his own; if that were so, he would have had to suffer repeatedly from the foundation of the world. But now once for all he has appeared at the end of the ages to take away sin by his sacrifice. Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment, so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him. *(Hebrews 9:22-28)
In the Greek the phrase, “now to appear” indicates not a completed action but an action which began in the past and continues to the present. This is an important distinction to make in understanding Jesus‘ sacrifice. Jesus is not offering Himself over and over to God, but is continuingly offering the same offering. Jesus is not suffering, bleeding and dying all over again in the Eucharist, but is continually offering the blood shed on the cross to God the Father as an intercession for our sin. In the Eucharist we enter into this perpetual offering of the once and for all sacrifice of Calvary. Hope that helps.
PAX CHRISTI
Bill
Christ the King Apologetics
A good question. The Mass in general and the Eucharist in particular is a “true and living” sacrifice, but presented in an “un-bloody manner” under the accidents of Bread and Wine.
It must be remembered that there are two aspects to every sacrifice, the killing of the victim and the offering of the victim. We see this in St. Paul’s words to the Corinthians:
*Clear out the old yeast, so that you may become a fresh batch of dough, inasmuch as you are unleavened. For our paschal lamb, Christ, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. *(1 Corinthians 5:7-8)
Notice that St. Paul says that Jesus Christ our Pascal Lamb “has been sacrificed,” past tense. Then he says “let us celebrate the feast,” present tense.
Turning to Hebrews chapter 7 we read:
*Those priests *[the Levitical priesthood]*were many because they were prevented by death from remaining in office, but he, because he remains forever, has a priesthood that does not pass away. Therefore, he is always able to save those who approach God through him, since he lives forever to make intercession for them. It was fitting that we should have such a high priest: holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, higher than the heavens. He has no need, as did the high priests, to offer sacrifice day after day, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did that once for all when he offered himself. For the law appoints men subject to weakness to be high priests, but the word of the oath, which was taken after the law, appoints a son, who has been made perfect forever. *(Hebrews 7:23-28)
Notice that while it dose say here that Jesus offered Himself as a sacrifice once and for all, the text makes an important distinction. The sacrifice has been completed, but Jesus, our Great High Priest is constantly interceding on our behalf to God the Father, “ He lives forever to make intercession.”
So it is here that we must ask, “How does a High Priest make intercession?” He makes it by offering up the sacrifice to God. Hebrews shows us this:
*According to the law almost everything is purified by blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Therefore, it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified by these rites, but the heavenly things themselves by better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter into a sanctuary made by hands, a copy of the true one, but heaven itself, that he might now appear before God on our behalf. Not that he might offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters each year into the sanctuary with blood that is not his own; if that were so, he would have had to suffer repeatedly from the foundation of the world. But now once for all he has appeared at the end of the ages to take away sin by his sacrifice. Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment, so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him. *(Hebrews 9:22-28)
In the Greek the phrase, “now to appear” indicates not a completed action but an action which began in the past and continues to the present. This is an important distinction to make in understanding Jesus‘ sacrifice. Jesus is not offering Himself over and over to God, but is continuingly offering the same offering. Jesus is not suffering, bleeding and dying all over again in the Eucharist, but is continually offering the blood shed on the cross to God the Father as an intercession for our sin. In the Eucharist we enter into this perpetual offering of the once and for all sacrifice of Calvary. Hope that helps.
PAX CHRISTI
Bill
Christ the King Apologetics
B
bengal_fan
Guest
it is a sacrifice in the sense that it is a participation in the original “once for all” sacrifice. Jesus is not being “re”-sacrificed. it is a fulfillment of the passover meal where a jewish person would “spiritually” take part in the original passover. the mass fulfills this in that we physically take part in the original cross. Jesus becomes physically present in the eucharist and therefore it is a re-presenting of the original sacrifice. it’s as if we have an infinite amount of the flesh kept in a closet and we bring it out every time we celebrate mass and everyone takes part of it. we don’t have to kill the meat again, but it is still the same sacrifice.
Z
zange
Guest
OK, this is really embarrassing, so I hope somebody can clear it up for me. Embarrassing, because I’m Catholic and attend Mass nearly every day. But I don’t see the aspect of Good Friday (the sacrifice of Jesus the Pascal Lamb) so much as Holy Thursday in the celebration of the Mass. Yes, I accept the Real Presence. But isn’t that rooted in Jesus’s words on Holy Thursday, “Take and eat. This is my body.” ? When he said those words, he had yet to suffer and die on the cross (in our human time, of course). How do we get from Holy Thursday (the last words we hear in the Eucharistic celebration of the Mass) to the next day, Good Friday?
I know enough of the Catechism to know that those who’ve been explaining the Pascal Sacrifice (Good Friday) as the essence of the Mass are correct, and especially the way in which the one sacrifice is re-presented at every Mass. But what is the basis for the Good Friday aspect of the Mass?
Thanks.
I know enough of the Catechism to know that those who’ve been explaining the Pascal Sacrifice (Good Friday) as the essence of the Mass are correct, and especially the way in which the one sacrifice is re-presented at every Mass. But what is the basis for the Good Friday aspect of the Mass?
Thanks.
J
joegrabowski
Guest
Rather than any specific responses, I thought I’d quote some Catechism references which might help.
Para. 618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the “one mediator between God and men”. But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, “the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery” is offered to all men. He calls his disciples to “take up [their] cross and follow (him)”, for “Christ also suffered for (us), leaving (us) an example so that (we) should follow in his steps.” In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries.This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering. Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven.
Para.1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:
[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper “on the night when he was betrayed,” [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.
** Para.1367** The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner.”
And a quote from Saint Augustine, from Paragraph 1372: “This wholly redeemed city, the assembly and society of the saints, is offered to God as a universal sacrifice by the high priest who in the form of a slave went so far as to offer himself for us in his Passion, to make us the Body of so great a head… Such is the sacrifice of Christians:we who are many are one Body in Christ, the Church continues to reproduce this sacrifice in the sacrament of the altar so well-known to believers wherein it is evident to them that in what she offers she herself is offered.”
I hope this might help a little. Reading the entire section from the Catechism is a good start. It is available on the website of the Holy See.
Para. 618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the “one mediator between God and men”. But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, “the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery” is offered to all men. He calls his disciples to “take up [their] cross and follow (him)”, for “Christ also suffered for (us), leaving (us) an example so that (we) should follow in his steps.” In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries.This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering. Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven.
Para.1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:
[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper “on the night when he was betrayed,” [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.
** Para.1367** The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner.”
And a quote from Saint Augustine, from Paragraph 1372: “This wholly redeemed city, the assembly and society of the saints, is offered to God as a universal sacrifice by the high priest who in the form of a slave went so far as to offer himself for us in his Passion, to make us the Body of so great a head… Such is the sacrifice of Christians:we who are many are one Body in Christ, the Church continues to reproduce this sacrifice in the sacrament of the altar so well-known to believers wherein it is evident to them that in what she offers she herself is offered.”
I hope this might help a little. Reading the entire section from the Catechism is a good start. It is available on the website of the Holy See.
G
GAssisi
Guest
I would simply like to add to Bill Rutland’s concise observation of the difference between the victimizing and the offering of the victim.
There are two specific Greek words to memorize (if you want) in this regard:
THYSIA: refers to 1) the act of victimizing/killing for a sacrifice; 2) the victim itself
PROSPHERO: refers to 1) the act of offering up the victim or sacrifice; 2) the offering itself.
Both these words refer to SACRIFICE and are often translated as “sacrifice.” Definition #2 of THYSIA and both definitions of PROSPHERO are applicable in eternity, and we can thus be in the presence of this offering and this victim at any time and at any place through the power of God. It was St. John Chrysostom who proposed the beautiful image that at each Mass/Divine Liturgy, the congregation is spiritually transported to that heavenly sacrifice to which St. John was privy as recorded in the Book of Revelation.
Definition #1 of THYSIA has a purely temporal aspect. This only happened ONCE to Jesus in the past, and it will NEVER happen again. That is why, as someone else had noted, what we have at Mass/Divine Liturgy is an UNBLOODY sacrifice, meaning that Jesus is not being victimized or slain again.
God bless,
Greg
There are two specific Greek words to memorize (if you want) in this regard:
THYSIA: refers to 1) the act of victimizing/killing for a sacrifice; 2) the victim itself
PROSPHERO: refers to 1) the act of offering up the victim or sacrifice; 2) the offering itself.
Both these words refer to SACRIFICE and are often translated as “sacrifice.” Definition #2 of THYSIA and both definitions of PROSPHERO are applicable in eternity, and we can thus be in the presence of this offering and this victim at any time and at any place through the power of God. It was St. John Chrysostom who proposed the beautiful image that at each Mass/Divine Liturgy, the congregation is spiritually transported to that heavenly sacrifice to which St. John was privy as recorded in the Book of Revelation.
Definition #1 of THYSIA has a purely temporal aspect. This only happened ONCE to Jesus in the past, and it will NEVER happen again. That is why, as someone else had noted, what we have at Mass/Divine Liturgy is an UNBLOODY sacrifice, meaning that Jesus is not being victimized or slain again.
God bless,
Greg
Z
zange
Guest
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joegrabowski:
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