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OneSheep
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Rocks are good! They have a beauty, and they can serve a purpose. Rocks rock!
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Vonsalza
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A negative force that is directed in the same way that good is a positive force that is led and directed.
Think of two castles at polar ends of the metaphysical spectrum. One made of black stone with screams issuing forth and the other pearly white stone with harp music playing. They’re discrete things per the views of some.
Thus bringing into question, again, the claim of innateness.
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Vonsalza
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Rocks are bad. They’re ugly, they clog plows and are used to hurt people. Rocks stink!Vonsalza:
Rocks are good! They have a beauty, and they can serve a purpose. Rocks rock!
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PetraG
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Well, I think the Greeks are a counter-example that shows that us-vs-them can see supernatural powers as taking side for reasons that are human rather than based on a struggle between an All-Good side and an All-Evil side. If you study anthropology, dualism is not a part of every society’s cosmology. That argues that seeing the world in terms of “good out there” vs “bad out there” is not innate, but “favorable to me” vs “not favorable to me” probably is what we are born with. We are also born to mature into “favorable to us” and “not favorable to us,” since not maturing into a view that encompasses empathy towards one’s own group is generally considered a psychological disorder.
More to the the point, not knowing cannot be a reason for not doing. There gets to be a point where we need to act, and we come to learn that we will never act if we try to wait to act at all until all the facts are in evidence. We have to try to form some possible pictures if we are going to identify which pieces of the puzzle we must look for in order to prove or disprove our early assessment of the situation. Otherwise, we just have a bunch of facts without any way to make sense of them.Well, there is the constant dilemma of not knowing what we don’t know…
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OneSheep
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Yes, they can get in the way and can be used for evil purposes. But in themselves, they are simply rocks, and they are beautiful. God sees them as good…Rocks are bad. They clog plows and are used to hurt people. Rocks stink!
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Vonsalza
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sure, and possibly not.
They are simply rocks and I think they’re largely ugly. Really.
So western Christian philosophy tells me. Which is fine.
It’s just not the only school - my only real point.
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OneSheep
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If you can find an example, I’m interested in looking into it further. Thanks!
Is it innate to resent aspects of our own nature? Maybe that is a more germane question.
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IWantGod
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lool. But that is a very cartoony representation of good/evil dualism. Beyond the metaphors i don’t think it means much. A dark castle is a dark castle. Even if you hear screams, until you find someone that is committing a sin You won’t know that something evil is happening.
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OneSheep
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I’m pretty sure there are some Eastern meditation that involve looking at a rock, and seeing it, really observing it. Can the human do this and not see beauty? Only if they have some resentment towards the stone, methinks…
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Vonsalza
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It is, but I don’t think metaphysical ideas are particularly hard to grasp, to be fair.
And it’s worth noting that the dualism even in Christianity isn’t even balanced since God will eventually destroy Satan and is thus presumed by all parties to be the mightier.
Moreover, dualism isn’t necessarily “Good V. Evil”. The Chinese yin and yang certainly isn’t/aren’t.
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PetraG
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If you read up on the history of dualism, the fact that dualism has a limited history is evidence that it is not innate.
As for “good out there” and “bad out there,” I meant a singular Good out there that is the source of all Good (which is sometimes a deity and sometimes seen as an impersonal force) and a Bad out there that is the source of all Bad, not that some things out there are favorable and some are fearful.
You’ll want to look for religious or moral dualism (good vs bad) rather than the spirt-body or mind-body kind of dualism.
As for “good out there” and “bad out there,” I meant a singular Good out there that is the source of all Good (which is sometimes a deity and sometimes seen as an impersonal force) and a Bad out there that is the source of all Bad, not that some things out there are favorable and some are fearful.
You’ll want to look for religious or moral dualism (good vs bad) rather than the spirt-body or mind-body kind of dualism.
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Vonsalza
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Preceded by the philosophical pluralism of our polytheist “fathers” if I remember correctly. Our cosmology breaks down to all sorts of factors and so on…
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Vonsalza
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I think Tolkien had the neatest solution. He switched roles and let his “devil” be the mightier. But the “good gods” were greater in number and thus more powerful in cooperation. And layered behind it all is the detached ultimate creator “Ea” who doesn’t seem to play a detectable, direct role.IWantGod:
It is, but I don’t think metaphysical ideas are particularly hard to grasp, to be fair.
And it’s worth noting that the dualism even in Christianity isn’t even balanced since God will eventually destroy Satan and is thus presumed by all parties to be the mightier.
Moreover, dualism isn’t necessarily “Good V. Evil”. The Chinese yin and yang certainly isn’t/aren’t.
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PetraG
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There aren’t many advanced philosophies that have a bone to pick with rocks. I don’t think there are many philosophers who haven’t found a rock they are fond of.
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PetraG
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Which is to say that the evidence argues against good/bad dualism being an innate outlook, historically speaking.
That doesn’t say anything about whether good/bad dualism is a good description of the truth. There are many things that are true that we are not within a million miles of being born knowing.
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OneSheep
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Again, if you can give a specific example, I am very interested.
Yes, this is the kind of dualism I am talking about. “Good source” vs “Bad source”
Morality has to do with the characterization of behaviors and the hurt or harm, the call for discipline. I did not intend to get into morality here, even though it is a very important topic.
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Vonsalza
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Have a Blast!PetraG:
Again, if you can give a specific example, I am very interested.
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PetraG
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I did give you a specific example. If you’re very interested, sorry, do the work to go find the sources. It is not hard to find. If you don’t want to believe me that you can find them, oh well. We part ways in peace, anyway.
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OneSheep
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Well, there are many types of dualism, and from the article it is difficult to distinguish whether any refer to Power of good/evil dualism.
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Vonsalza
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…That’s kind of the point.Vonsalza:
Well, there are many types of dualism, and from the article it is difficult to distinguish whether any refer to Power of good/evil dualism.
It gives cosmological dualisms that aren’t good/evil.
It give cosmological systems that aren’t dualistic like nihilism, metaphysical pluralism, and others.
I’m with PetraG. I’m out.
Good luck!
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