Is the Mormon God/Heavenly Father described in the Bible?

[KathleenGee]

God bless you, Paul, and thank you for support in defending us who have brought up past Mormon practices and beliefs that are denied by Mormons coming on here…

It is very sad for me to see former Catholics coming to CAF boasting of their new found religion, and denying any of its total teachings and practices. Thank goodness most who leave don’t come back here to rub it in.

 

[TexanKnight]

I am jealous…it has only been 22 years for me…

 

[rdscheirer]

And Jesus said love God with all your heart and all your mind and love your neighbor as yourself. What the “H” does all your banter about someone who invented a doctrine similar to the mohammadan sect. Both came from guys that "found a bible- Smith a gold bible that noone else ever saw- mohammad in a cave where he said the angel Gabriel came to him. Tell me how they are different.They are single witnesses that have no witnessses like Jesus does.

 

[Janderich]

And Jesus said love God with all your heart and all your mind and love your neighbor as yourself. What the “H” does all your banter about someone who invented a doctrine similar to the mohammadan sect. Both came from guys that "found a bible- Smith a gold bible that noone else ever saw- mohammad in a cave where he said the angel Gabriel came to him. Tell me how they are different.They are single witnesses that have no witnesses like Jesus does.

Joseph was not the only person to see the plates. On at least two separate occasions others saw the plates. On one occasion three witnesses and on another eight witnesses. The three witnesses say this in part:

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates… And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; …And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things.

The eight witnesses bear a similar testimony.

 

[TexanKnight]

Joseph was not the only person to see the plates. On at least two separate occasions others saw the plates. On one occasion three witnesses and on another eight witnesses. The three witnesses say this in part: The eight witnesses bear a similar testimony.

Actually, they were all family and friends of Joseph…not very credible. Additionally, they saw with their spiritual eyes…

 

[PaulDupre]

Actually, they were all family and friends of Joseph…not very credible. Additionally, they saw with their spiritual eyes…

Not only that…Joseph Smith himself wrote those witness “testimonies” and then got his family and friends to sign them. Not very convincing.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[PaulDupre]

God bless you, Paul, and thank you for support in defending us who have brought up past Mormon practices and beliefs that are denied by Mormons coming on here…

Thank you Kathleen and Rebecca. I am sure that God led me through the pain and misery of Mormonism for a good reason. Much of that reason is here. The rest of the reason is that I would not be the on-fire Catholic I am today were it not for living for eleven years in the midst of one of the most evil heresies of our time.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[1voice]

Joseph was not the only person to see the plates. On at least two separate occasions others saw the plates. On one occasion three witnesses and on another eight witnesses. The three witnesses say this in part: The eight witnesses bear a similar testimony.

Please dont take offense at my question here … I am sincerely interested in understanding Mormon history and doctrine … as I previously mentioned … my daughter dated a young man who is a Mormon.
Until recently I was unaware of the custom of polyandry practiced by Joseph Smith.
Can you give insight into the doctrinal reasoning behind Joseph Smith taking the wives of men that were associated with them. I know that poligamy and polyandry are not practiced or sanctioned today. Is it common knowledge,within the Church today, that Joseph Smith freely practiced polyandry?
How do you/ they feel about that part of Joseph Smith’s persona.

Here is my question in more detail as related to LDS Church history and research.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8778952&postcount=15

 

[TheExorcist]

Until recently I was unaware of the custom of polyandry practiced by Joseph Smith. Can you give insight into the doctrinal reasoning behind Joseph Smith taking the wives of men that were associated with them. I know that poligamy and polyandry are not practiced or sanctioned today. Is it common knowledge,within the Church today, that Joseph Smith freely practiced polyandry? How do you/ they feel about that part of Joseph Smith’s persona.

I don’t think that side of Joe’s persona is known at all to the average church member. This is true mostly because most TBMs do no reading outside “official” church publications (Church magazines, lesson manuals, the “standard works” [official scriptures], etc) and those publications DEFINITELY do not talk about such things.

To answer another one of your questions, I don’t think there IS a doctrinal basis for JS to have married those women…

Regards,

Charles

 

[paulp1002]

Joseph was not the only person to see the plates. On at least two separate occasions others saw the plates. On one occasion three witnesses and on another eight witnesses. The three witnesses say this in part: The eight witnesses bear a similar testimony.

I bet I can get 8 to 10 of my friends to say that they saw platinum plates that where shown to me by an angel. Especially if I told him that they will be remembered for years to come and taught about in church history books.

Please dont take offense at my question here … I am sincerely interested in understanding Mormon history and doctrine … as I previously mentioned … my daughter dated a young man who is a Mormon.
Until recently I was unaware of the custom of polyandry practiced by Joseph Smith.
Can you give insight into the doctrinal reasoning behind Joseph Smith taking the wives of men that were associated with them. I know that poligamy and polyandry are not practiced or sanctioned today. Is it common knowledge,within the Church today, that Joseph Smith freely practiced polyandry?
How do you/ they feel about that part of Joseph Smith’s persona.

Here is my question in more detail as related to LDS Church history and research.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8778952&postcount=15

It is my understanding that JS and crew used stories from the Old Testament to support their practice of plural marriage. Also I wouldn’t go as far to say they don’t practice plural marriage anymore. Couple examples:

• In the “Mainstream” LDS Church, a man can marry, be sealed in a temple, get divorced, marry again and be sealed in the temple again to the new wife and in the after life, be “married” or “sealed” to multiple wives. Even if he divorces for a 2nd or 3rd time, if he is “sealed” to them on earth, they will be “sealed” in heaven. (Matthew 18:18). As for the wives. It is extremely difficult for them to be unsealed from their husbands, it’s possible but not easily done.
• I’m sure you have heard of the FLDS, they still practice polygamy and in “my” opinion their beliefs are more closely related to what JS and BY taught (although maybe a little more extreme, ie… marrying underage girls.) The “mainstream” LDS church “stopped” plural marriage and started to allow blacks as priesthood holders because they wanted statehood etc…
• My ex wife told me that many of her relatives moved out of the country, to Mexico so they can follow JS and BY teachings of plural marriage. I’m sure many other families did the same.

 

[paulp1002]

Talk about timing. Here is a article from today regarding how Mitt Romney’s family moved to Mexico, to escape persecution for their religious beliefs in the US. We all know he is Mormon.

rockcenter.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/06/10005266-mitt-romneys-family-in-mexico-reveals-candidates-heritage-south-of-border

 

[theidler]

How do Mormons differ from Evangelical Christians in their concept of God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

Is there a difference? Is it significant … or not?

Oh boy…you really opened up a can of worms here.
There is a huge difference - the Mormon God was once human like us, and later became an exalted being. Mormons teach polytheism - read the Book of Abraham. Mormons also deny the Trinity, deny that there is only one God, the list goes on and on and on. There is zero similarity, but Mormons get by by using the the same terms as Christians, but in a completely different sense altogether.

 

[rdscheirer]

Let’s look at it in the light of time. If I claimed I found a golden book that told me exactly what God wants us to do I would be dismissed. I applaud the LDS people for being morally sound but I just can’t believe that some guy found a book made of gold which disssapeared as soon as he saw it. Similar to the guy who sat in the cave and had the Angel Gabriel dictate to him.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

Couple of differences between credibility the BIBLE vs. BOM is there are over 5000 ancient copies of the Bible in many languages; Dead Sea Scrolls, Early Church Fathers writings - They DOVETAIL together - also with very, very few copy errors; really no changes in doctrine - The Church, however, the authentic custodian of the Bible grows in understanding and authentic interpretation of the Bible

vs. say so of one Joseph Smith, arrested and found guilty of “glass-looking” “money digger” complete with peepstone - starts his career in jail & ends it in jail on the wrong end of a gun, dying in a gun fight; over 3900 copy errors and doctrinal changes in his “inspired” Book of Mormon. Funny: NO ONE SAW the Plates; NO ONE SAW the Angel; NO ONE SAW GOD THE FATHER as NO ONE SEES GOD AND LIVES (expect Jacob). No-Brainer for the Jews to be sure.

BYU’S Dr. Hugh Nibley said Joseph Smith did not publish the first vision story until 1842 (why not? surely that would be huge news at the time if it were true): “Joseph Smith’s ‘official’ account of his first vision and the visits of the angel Moroni was written in 1838 and first published in the Times and Seasons in 1842”. (Improvement Era, July 1961, p. 490)

in 1832, Smith claimed to have a revelation which stated that a man could not see God without the Priesthood - see Section 84 of D & C verse 21-22: "And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh: "For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father and live.

Jump to Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, vol. 1, p.4:
“The Father and the Son appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith before the Church was organized and the priesthood restored to the earth.”

Big Problem here as “truth” collapses: 1832 “revelation” suggests first vision story made up years after it supposedly occurred; there was NO PRIESTHOOD at supposed time of “first vision” in 1820 but D & C says needed a PRIESTHOOD that was NON-EXISTANT in order to “SEE GOD”

Poor ol’ Joseph Smith just kept digging deeper & deeper holes.

 

[theidler]

Couple of differences between credibility the BIBLE vs. BOM is there are over 5000 ancient copies of the Bible in many languages; Dead Sea Scrolls, Early Church Fathers writings - They DOVETAIL together - also with very, very few copy errors; really no changes in doctrine - The Church, however, the authentic custodian of the Bible grows in understanding and authentic interpretation of the Bible

vs. say so of one Joseph Smith, arrested and found guilty of “glass-looking” “money digger” complete with peepstone - starts his career in jail & ends it in jail on the wrong end of a gun, dying in a gun fight; over 3900 copy errors and doctrinal changes in his “inspired” Book of Mormon. Funny: NO ONE SAW the Plates; NO ONE SAW the Angel; NO ONE SAW GOD THE FATHER as NO ONE SEES GOD AND LIVES (expect Jacob). No-Brainer for the Jews to be sure.

BYU’S Dr. Hugh Nibley said Joseph Smith did not publish the first vision story until 1842 (why not? surely that would be huge news at the time if it were true): “Joseph Smith’s ‘official’ account of his first vision and the visits of the angel Moroni was written in 1838 and first published in the Times and Seasons in 1842”. (Improvement Era, July 1961, p. 490)

in 1832, Smith claimed to have a revelation which stated that a man could not see God without the Priesthood - see Section 84 of D & C verse 21-22: "And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh: "For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father and live.

Jump to Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, vol. 1, p.4:
“The Father and the Son appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith before the Church was organized and the priesthood restored to the earth.”

Big Problem here as “truth” collapses: 1832 “revelation” suggests first vision story made up years after it supposedly occurred; there was NO PRIESTHOOD at supposed time of “first vision” in 1820 but D & C says needed a PRIESTHOOD that was NON-EXISTANT in order to “SEE GOD”

Poor ol’ Joseph Smith just kept digging deeper & deeper holes.

Bingo. But of course, this will be dodged and glossed over as usual.

 

[rainman10]

John 10:17-18 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

John 5:17-20 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth…

If the Son can do nothing but what he seeth the Father do then how can the Son lay down his life and take it up again save he saw the Father do the same? Is it not reasonable then to supose that the Father dwelt on an earth just as the Son and the Son learned from the Father?

So if I understand you correctly, Jesus, the Son laid down His life and took it up again because He saw His Father do the same thing? So, then, God, Jesus’ Father, was, also, a Jesus, in that he laid down His life at some point on another earth?? So, then, was every other god, before the God of this earth, also, a Jesus of some sort who laid down his life and took it up again??? I am so confused.

 

[soren1]

Joseph was not the only person to see the plates. On at least two separate occasions others saw the plates. On one occasion three witnesses and on another eight witnesses. The three witnesses say this in part: The eight witnesses bear a similar testimony.

The witnesses of the Book of Mormon do not give consistent testimony. If the signed documents at the beginning of the BOM were the only evidence we had, it would prove nothing other than that Joseph wrote it and they signed it. To really determine whether the testimony is credible we have to look at the witnesses themselves, their fuller stories as they are known to us, to get a sense of what their competence was at the time they signed it. And that is where the LDS case falls apart, because if you compare the accounts that the witnesses give separate from those documents, the evidence becomes rapidly weaker. For instance, Martin Harris later qualified his testimony, saying he saw the plates with “spiritual eyes.” Coming from a man who remained insistent that his testimony was true, even while he was separated from Smith, I think that qualification is credible. Moreover, some individual testimonies betray flaws. For instance, Emma Smith writes that she heard the sheets of the golden plates make a tinkling sound, evidently unaware that gold, a heavy element with an atomic number of 79 does not tinkle as lighter metals do. Hence, her testimony actually shows that whatever physical object Smith had, it was not made of gold. (This argument also holds if the plates were only gold-plated of made of that Mesoamerican alloy Tumbaga.) This is to say nothing of the conflicting descriptions witnesses give of the Urim and Thummim; and there are even more problems besides that; I am limiting myself here only to some of the most obvious.

 

[theidler]

Interesting read here, by the way:
ignitumtoday.com/2012/01/03/truth-seekers/

I would highlight this, a letter from a convert to Catholicism from Mormonism:

“I am now a Catholic who converted in April of this year having spent 40 years in the Mormon church. My husband is still Mormon and knows of my conversion to the Catholic faith; however, he has asked that I not let our children find out due to the fact that they may keep our grandchildren away from us (you see, I would be a threat to their eternal salvation and progression). I would like to send you my conversion story, but need to know if you could post it without using my real name? In addition to the fear above mentioned, there are actually Mormons who search sites such as yours, looking for those of us who dare to question and/or leave, and when they find one of us, they turn us over to the church authorities for disciplinary action. This would be harmful to my husband’s position in the Mormon church and I cannot risk that. My husband has been so understanding and supportive of my decision that I cannot do anything that would bring harm to him. Thank you for your kind consideration.”

 

[Janderich]

The witnesses of the Book of Mormon do not give consistent testimony. If the signed documents at the beginning of the BOM were the only evidence we had, it would prove nothing other than that Joseph wrote it and they signed it. To really determine whether the testimony is credible we have to look at the witnesses themselves, their fuller stories as they are known to us, to get a sense of what their competence was at the time they signed it. And that is where the LDS case falls apart, because if you compare the accounts that the witnesses give separate from those documents, the evidence becomes rapidly weaker. For instance, Martin Harris later qualified his testimony, saying he saw the plates with “spiritual eyes.” Coming from a man who remained insistent that his testimony was true, even while he was separated from Smith, I think that qualification is credible. Moreover, some individual testimonies betray flaws. For instance, Emma Smith writes that she heard the sheets of the golden plates make a tinkling sound, evidently unaware that gold, a heavy element with an atomic number of 79 does not tinkle as lighter metals do. Hence, her testimony actually shows that whatever physical object Smith had, it was not made of gold. (This argument also holds if the plates were only gold-plated of made of that Mesoamerican alloy Tumbaga.) This is to say nothing of the conflicting descriptions witnesses give of the Urim and Thummim; and there are even more problems besides that; I am limiting myself here only to some of the most obvious.

I find it funny that after more than 150 years and a host of detractors the best direct evidence against the 11 witnesses is Martin Harris stating that he saw the plates with “spiritual eyes”. Here are a few other statements from Martin Harris:

When we came out of the meeting Martin Harris was beset with a crowd in the street, expecting he would furnish them with material to war against Mormonism; but when asked if Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, he answered yes; and when asked if the Book of Mormon was true, this was his answer: “Do you know that is the sun shining on us? Because as sure as you know that, I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and that he translated that book by the power of God.” (Autumn Leaves 2 (1889): 141)

On one occasion several of his old acquaintances made an effort to get him tipsy by treating him to some wine. When they thought he was in a good mood for talk they put the question very carefully to him, ‘Well, now, Martin, we want you to be frank and candid with us in regard to this story of your seeing an angel and the golden plates of the Book of Mormon that are so much talked about. We have always taken you to be an honest good farmer and neighbor of ours but could not believe that you did see an angel. Now, Martin, do you really believe that you did see an angel, when you were awake?’ ‘No,’ said Martin, ‘I do not believe it.’ The crowd were delighted, but soon a different feeling prevailed, as Martin true to his trust, said, ‘Gentlemen, what I have said is true, from the fact that my belief is swallowed up in knowledge; for I want to say to you that as the Lord lives I do know that I stood with the Prophet Joseph Smith in the presence of the angel, and it was the brightness of day.”(Letter of Elder Edward Stevenson to the Millennial Star quoted in William Edwin Berrett, The Restored Church (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1974), 57–58)

And just before his death:

The Book of Mormon is no fake. I know what I know. I have seen what I have seen and I have heard what I have heard. I have seen the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon is written. An angel appeared to me and others and testified to the truthfulness of the record, and had I been willing to have perjured myself and sworn falsely to the testimony I now bear I could have been a rich man, but I could not have testified other than I have done and am now doing for these things are true.(George Godfrey, “Testimony of Martin Harris,” from an unpublished manuscript copy in the possession of his daughter, Florence (Godfrey) Munson of Fielding, Utah; quoted in Eldin Ricks, The Case of the Book of Mormon Witnesses (Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1971), 65–66)

 

[paulp1002]

I guess that is one of my biggest struggles. Every time someone from the Mormon faith tries to support their “claim” they always use LDS resources from LDS Members. Of course they will support whatever claim they are trying to defend. I can’t say that anyone has used any “third-party” (non LDS) resources.