Is the Mormon God/Heavenly Father described in the Bible?

[pablope]

Pablape,

The Book of Mormon was translated into English and uses, where possible, similar terminology as the KJV of the Bible.

 

[theidler]

Just a side note:

My 25th anniversary of leaving the LDS cult is coming up. To this day, whenever I drive past an LDS chapel I utter a small prayer of thanksgiving to the Holy Spirit for helping me to recognize the deception and to get out when I did.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

Praise Jesus Christ friend.
I feel the same way about my escaping Adventism, though I do not have your same level of charity about it:blush:

 

[1voice]

Let me just give an Mormon perspective on the question…

As most know, we believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three distinct personages who are one in purpose. Their purpose is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Here is how we distinguish the three:

The Father - He is the Father of you and me. He is the Father of our spirits. He is the great ruler of the universe. We are created in his image.
The Son - He is also a spirit son of God. However, unlike you and me he is the only Son of God in the flesh. He atoned for our sins and through him we are saved.
Holy Ghost - He is a personage of spirit. We receive guidance and inspiration through his ministrations.

These three individuals constitute the Godhead.

We believe the bible affirms these facts. However, we also believe that Joseph Smith saw both God the Father and the Son. He testifies of his experience using these words, “When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other–“This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!””

From the above I understand that Mormons believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and they believe that Jesus died for the salvation of humanity … and having faith in that fact is essential to salvation … these beliefs are the foundation of Christianity and professed by most Christian denominations.
Yet, according to the Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith saw God the Father and God the Son, after praying about which church he should join. He was told by Jesus, he should join none of them for they were “all wrong” and all the Christian church’s doctrines “were an abomination”

Why was Joseph Smith told that all other Christian expressions were an abomination?
… do the Mormon Church leaders regard other Christian faiths in that way today?

 

[ParkerD]

From the above I understand that Mormons believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and they believe that Jesus died for the salvation of humanity … and having faith in that fact is essential to salvation … these beliefs are the foundation of Christianity and professed by most Christian denominations.
Yet, according to the Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith saw God the Father and God the Son, after praying about which church he should join. He was told by Jesus, he should join none of them for they were “all wrong” and all the Christian church’s doctrines “were an abomination”

Why was Joseph Smith told that all other Christian expressions were an abomination?
… do the Mormon Church leaders regard other Christian faiths in that way today?

1voice,

I’ll give you one perspective, and Janderich will hopefully also, but I think it’s an important enough question you have asked that when I noticed it here, it shouldn’t be left unanswered.

When Jesus spoke to the Jews, even though we don’t have the original language He used, we know that He was very precise in His use of language.

The words quoted by Joseph Smith were that he was told by Jesus, “all their creeds were an abomination in his sight;”

The word “creeds” doesn’t mean “doctrines”; it usually means “formula or confession of religious faith.”

One can form their own conclusion about why the word “abomination” would have been used, and it would seem helpful to refer to the Old Testament since that word is used in the Old Testament. I think it is referring to what Isaiah wrote about as “their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men” (Isaiah 29:13) and “this people draw near me with their mouth”.

I think the Savior wants a religion of the heart and soul being totally engaged and joyful about His saving grace, including His power to exalt through His perfect, infinite atoning sacrifice and through individual, heartfelt repentance and change throughout a person’s life.

 

[PaulDupre]

abomination əˌbɒmɪˈneɪʃən]
n

1. a person or thing that is disgusting
2. an action that is vicious, vile, etc.
3. intense loathing
   Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

 

[1voice]

1voice,

I’ll give you one perspective, and Janderich will hopefully also, but I think it’s an important enough question you have asked that when I noticed it here, it shouldn’t be left unanswered.

When Jesus spoke to the Jews, even though we don’t have the original language He used, we know that He was very precise in His use of language.

The words quoted by Joseph Smith were that he was told by Jesus, “all their creeds were an abomination in his sight;”

The word “creeds” doesn’t mean “doctrines”; it usually means “formula or confession of religious faith.”

One can form their own conclusion about why the word “abomination” would have been used, and it would seem helpful to refer to the Old Testament since that word is used in the Old Testament. I think it is referring to what Isaiah wrote about as “their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men” (Isaiah 29:13) and “this people draw near me with their mouth”.

I think the Savior wants a religion of the heart and soul being totally engaged and joyful about His saving grace, including His power to exalt through His perfect, infinite atoning sacrifice and through individual, heartfelt repentance and change throughout a person’s life.

According to Webster Dictionary the words creed, credo and the word doctrine are synonymous.
The root word for creed is the Latin word ‘credo’ which means to believe, trust.

Are all other Christian Creeds still considered an abomination by the LDS Church leadership?

 

[PaulDupre]

The Mormon Church has of thousands of ignorant young boys traveling the world claiming that God said:

they [Christian churches] were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt;

• Joseph Smith History as published in The Pearl of Great Price

Let’s examine this statement. Webster’s New World College Dictionary defines abomination as

1. an abominating; great hatred and disgust; loathing
2. Anything hateful and disgusting.

The same dictionary defines professor as

1. a person who professes something; esp., one who openly declares his sentiments, religious beliefs, etc.

The dictionary defines corrupt as

1. Changed from a sound condition to an unsound one; spoiled; contaminated; rotten
2. deteriorated from the normal or standard; specif,. a) morally unsound or debased; perverted; evil; depraved

Here is the Nicene Creed, the most-often recited Christian Creed and the one I as a Catholic profess:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
one in Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
by the power of the Holy Spirit,
he was born of the Virgin Mary
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
with the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified,
he has spoken through the prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Now tell me, you Mormons, what part of my creed is filthy, hateful and disgusting?

What about this creed makes me, a professor of this creed, rotten, morally debased, perverted, evil and depraved?

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[Janderich]

From the above I understand that Mormons believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and they believe that Jesus died for the salvation of humanity … and having faith in that fact is essential to salvation … these beliefs are the foundation of Christianity and professed by most Christian denominations.
Yet, according to the Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith saw God the Father and God the Son, after praying about which church he should join. He was told by Jesus, he should join none of them for they were “all wrong” and all the Christian church’s doctrines “were an abomination”

Why was Joseph Smith told that all other Christian expressions were an abomination?
… do the Mormon Church leaders regard other Christian faiths in that way today?

I agree with Parker’s explanation of creed in this context. It is a formal statement of christian beliefs. While there may be specific problems with individual creeds, the widespread and general problem is that they impose limits on ones faith and belief. Joseph Smith once said, “I cannot believe in any of the creeds of the different denominations, because they all have some things in them I cannot subscribe to, though all of them have some truth. I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn all things: but the creeds set up stakes, and say, ‘Hitherto shalt thou come, and no further’; which I cannot subscribe to.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p 327). While LDS do have a core set of beliefs as you have noted I feel the LDS church avoids setting bounds or upper limits on one’s faith. The first posts in this thread about God himself dwelling on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did is a good example of this.

We do not regard honest faithful members of other religions as corrupt. We recognize that there are many good and honorable people in all religions. I feel anyone who says otherwise is misrepresenting our beliefs.

 

[Crdl2Grv]

I feel anyone who says otherwise is misrepresenting our beliefs.

You mean PaulDp, right? Because he’s very clearly saying otherwise. He’s also offering very specific references that back up his position. In what way do those specific references misrepresent LDS beliefs?

 

[1voice]

I agree with Parker’s explanation of creed in this context. It is a formal statement of christian beliefs. While there may be specific problems with individual creeds, the widespread and general problem is that they impose limits on ones faith and belief. Joseph Smith once said, “I cannot believe in any of the creeds of the different denominations, because they all have some things in them I cannot subscribe to, though all of them have some truth. I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn all things: but the creeds set up stakes, and say, ‘Hitherto shalt thou come, and no further’; which I cannot subscribe to.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p 327). While LDS do have a core set of beliefs as you have noted I feel the LDS church avoids setting bounds or upper limits on one’s faith. The first posts in this thread about God himself dwelling on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did is a good example of this.

We do not regard honest faithful members of other religions as corrupt. We recognize that there are many good and honorable people in all religions. I feel anyone who says otherwise is misrepresenting our beliefs.

Again, every Christian expression that I know of adheres to the admonition in the Bible to ‘love one another’… I am not asking how the Mormons treat people of other religions. Clearly Mormons are peaceful and kind in their dealings with those that do not hold to their beliefs.​

The word abomination, then, was being applied, In Joseph Smith’s quote above, to any teachings that did not include/allow for the inspired writings and the preaching of Joseph Smith, his successors, and the people considered to be prophets by the LDS Church?

 

[PaulDupre]

I agree with Parker’s explanation of creed in this context. It is a formal statement of christian beliefs. While there may be specific problems with individual creeds, the widespread and general problem is that they impose limits on ones faith and belief. Joseph Smith once said, “I cannot believe in any of the creeds of the different denominations, because they all have some things in them I cannot subscribe to, though all of them have some truth. I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn all things: but the creeds set up stakes, and say, ‘Hitherto shalt thou come, and no further’; which I cannot subscribe to.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p 327). While LDS do have a core set of beliefs as you have noted I feel the LDS church avoids setting bounds or upper limits on one’s faith. The first posts in this thread about God himself dwelling on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did is a good example of this.

We do not regard honest faithful members of other religions as corrupt. We recognize that there are many good and honorable people in all religions. I feel anyone who says otherwise is misrepresenting our beliefs.

Exactly what limits does the Nicene creed place on my faith that the LDS Articles of Faith do not place on yours?

There is nothing in the creed that says “This is all you are allowed to believe”.

In fact, I believe a number of things beyond the creed, some of which I belIeve are the product of private revelation. Your view of Catholics is very misinformed. Your church is lying to you.

 

[Janderich]

Again, every Christian expression that I know of adheres to the admonition in the Bible to ‘love one another’… I am not asking how the Mormons treat people of other religions. Clearly Mormons are peaceful and kind in their dealings with those that do not hold to their beliefs.​

The word abomination, then, was being applied, In Joseph Smith’s quote above, to any teachings that did not include/allow for the inspired writings and the preaching of Joseph Smith, his successors, and the people considered to be prophets by the LDS Church?

1voice, Sorry to re-iterate the point about how we treat other’s of faith but the statement can be easily twisted to insinuate that other’s who believe differently than we do are rotten, evil, etc.

I believe your interpretation of Joseph Smith’s quote is too narrow. Joseph’s statement should be applied to any belief which does not allow a person to approach God, both inside and outside our church. We can be no less harsh on ourselves if we do not believe truth. Spencer Kimball a prior president of the church said, “In spite of our delight in defining ourselves as modern, and our tendency to think we possess a sophistication that no people in the past ever had—in spite of these things, we are, on the whole, an idolatrous people—a condition most repugnant to the Lord.” (The False God’s We Worship, Ensign June 1976). This statement *was not * qualified as applying to members of other faiths. In fact, the talk was more directed at members of the LDS church.

 

[Janderich]

Exactly what limits does the Nicene creed place on my faith that the LDS Articles of Faith do not place on yours?

There is nothing in the creed that says “This is all you are allowed to believe”.

In fact, I believe a number of things beyond the creed, some of which I belIeve are the product of private revelation. Your view of Catholics is very misinformed. Your church is lying to you.

Paul, Just by way of clarification, while I did post my reply after yours I had not seen your response until after I finished posting mine. So it was not meant to directly attack your post.

The Articles of Faith do reflect what we already believe but our faith does not hinge on the statements. We do not recite, nor are we asked specifically to agree to them. With continuing revelation we may add to or clarify statements. Is this also the case with your creeds? If I have misunderstood please set me straight on your beliefs.

 

[ParkerD]

Again, every Christian expression that I know of adheres to the admonition in the Bible to ‘love one another’… I am not asking how the Mormons treat people of other religions. Clearly Mormons are peaceful and kind in their dealings with those that do not hold to their beliefs.​

The word abomination, then, was being applied, In Joseph Smith’s quote above, to any teachings that did not include/allow for the inspired writings and the preaching of Joseph Smith, his successors, and the people considered to be prophets by the LDS Church?

1voice,

Since I already added my two cents, I’ll add two more.

I don’t view the word “abomination” in the context used by Christ, as meaning what you attributed in your last question here, at all.

I view it in the context of the Old and New Testaments, where it is used many times.

It means in a nutshell that if a person has accepted into their personal religious practice and devotion, a belief or set of beliefs that limit the shepherding that Christ wants to do and has offered to do for every person who has ever lived, then it is an “abomination” in His sight, because He will not force belief or force action.

He wants to bring His followers to be glorified, exalted, perfected through His atoning grace. All those aspects of His teaching are very clearly stated in the Bible (KJV).

 

[1voice]

1voice,

Since I already added my two cents, I’ll add two more.

I don’t view the word “abomination” in the context used by Christ, as meaning what you attributed in your last question here, at all.

I view it in the context of the Old and New Testaments, where it is used many times.

It means in a nutshell that if a person has accepted into their personal religious practice and devotion, a belief or set of beliefs that limit the shepherding that Christ wants to do and has offered to do for every person who has ever lived, then it is an “abomination” in His sight, because He will not force belief or force action.

He wants to bring His followers to be glorified, exalted, perfected through His atoning grace. All those aspects of His teaching are very clearly stated in the Bible (KJV).

What specifically does Christ want to do that caused Joseph Smith to conclude that all other Christian Creeds were considered an abomination.

 

[ParkerD]

What specifically does Christ want to do that caused Joseph Smith to conclude that all other Christian Creeds were considered an abomination.

Christ taught that He wants to lead people–be their personal shepherd, until they become perfected in Him after they are resurrected, and then thereafter continue in His love always, being one with Him and with the Father.

Jesus Christ is the one who told Joseph Smith about creeds being “an abomination”, so I guess you are correct that Joseph concluded that Jesus was telling him the truth, since that would have been the perspective and vantage point of the resurrected Son of God, the risen Lord, the Holy One of Israel, He who had been rejected by His own (the Jewish nation).

 

[1voice]

We can be no less harsh on ourselves if we do not believe truth. Spencer Kimball a prior president of the church said, “In spite of our delight in defining ourselves as modern, and our tendency to think we possess a sophistication that no people in the past ever had—in spite of these things, we are, on the whole, an idolatrous people—a condition most repugnant to the Lord.” (The False God’s We Worship, Ensign June 1976). This statement *was not * qualified as applying to members of other faiths. In fact, the talk was more directed at members of the LDS church.

I realize that Christians, as well as people of every religion are working toward a goal… and need to be made aware of that fact … as Paul the Apostle was himself aware …and pointed out … 'Not that I have now attained [this ideal], or have already been made perfect, but I press on to lay hold of (grasp) and make my own, that for which Christ Jesus (the Messiah) has laid hold of me and made me His own. Phil 3: 12

---

I am only referring to the creeds in my questions …and what makes them an abomination. I am not in any way referring to the people.

What specific things are included in the LDS creed that cause it to be acceptable to Jesus and not an abomination?

Are there specific examples of error in other creeds that Joseph Smith pointed to in order to support his belief?

1voice, Sorry to re-iterate the point about how we treat other’s of faith but the statement can be easily twisted to insinuate that other’s who believe differently than we do are rotten, evil, etc.

I believe your interpretation of Joseph Smith’s quote is too narrow. Joseph’s statement should be applied to any belief which does not allow a person to approach God, both inside and outside our church.

Individuals can believe things that contradict their church’s creed … and thus be in error with respect to their church’s creed. I am not referring to Individual interpretation. I am referring to what Joseph Smith meant when he compared the LDS Creed to those of all other Christian Churches.
How, specifically, does the LDS Church creed allow a person to approach God in a way that is not allowed by the creeds of other Christian Churches? … to the point that Joseph Smith believed, definitively, that all other Christian Creeds were an abomination?

 

[KathleenGee]

There was the utmost and critical mission of the Apostles and their successors that the truth of Christ would be passed down through future generations.

St Peter himself affirms in his second letter that the apostles were witnesses to His Majesty, Jesus Christ, and to think otherwise that the apostles did nothing or the Church as a whole was not concerned about the integrity of belief and practice is also implying a different understanding – and expectation of the Mormon Christ.

It is ludicrous to state that the Apostles Creed…coming from them and their successors and teachers…was corrupt.

The administration of choice was the Episcopacy, the liturgy basic and yet developing, and the Creed were in practice by 100 AD…

Also it was the work of many people and many years to assemble which books were meant for public revelation. Not one person stepping out and saying all of that is corrupt and now I am the one who has it right, a very different perspective and alleged events that have no architectural, anthropological, scientific paper trail.

What I see Mormonism as is a ritualistic belief system focused on the progression of the person to become exalted and deified…and this is a contradiction to Christianity.

 

[1voice]

Jesus Christ is the one who told Joseph Smith about creeds being “an abomination”, so I guess you are correct that Joseph concluded that Jesus was telling him the truth, since that would have been the perspective and vantage point of the resurrected Son of God, the risen Lord, the Holy One of Israel, He who had been rejected by His own (the Jewish nation).

Originally Posted by 1voice
What specifically does Christ want to do that caused Joseph Smith to conclude that all other Christian Creeds were considered an abomination.

Christ taught that He wants to lead people–be their personal shepherd, until they become perfected in Him after they are resurrected, and then thereafter continue in His love always, being one with Him and with the Father.

Is this one of the things that separates the LDS Creed from the Creeds of some other Christian Churches?

 

[KathleenGee]

Jesus Christ would never contradict His apostles and their teachings, and yet this is what Mormonism is proposing as well as the great apostasy…when in real life just the example of Christians were of great witness to the pagans…literally laying down their lives for them…not to gain converts…but to live the Gospel.

To say the early Church was corrupt in doctrine, historically, just doesn’t carry any weight.