Is the Mormon God/Heavenly Father described in the Bible?

[Telstar]

I have found some of ParkerD’s posts to be condescending towards my being a writer and English major when I criticized the Book of Mormon for having the same narrative voice throughout:blush:. I realize that I myself come off, I am certain, as uncharitable sometimes…but I would have at least liked an acknowledgement of a sort of apology from him for his sarcasm. Ah well. We all have our uncharitable moments.

Janderich, as much as I disagree with you, I think you have been very charitable and it is appreciated.

Parker made several posts where he was consistently redefining terms, or misunderstanding simple words and sentence structure, so I made the off-hand comment that I hoped he wasn’t an English teacher (as a joke). He then informed me that, not only did he read several other languages, including Hebrew and Greek, but has a master’s degree in English. I never even finished HS. My English teacher cried when I quit, because she said I should go to college and master in English. When Parker told me he had his master’s degree, all I could do was… :banghead: :crying:

 

[Janderich]

So it is an article of faith amongst the LDS that all other Christian creeds are “an abomination,” and yet the LDS faith does not have a creed of its own. So the real issue is with the mere existence of creeds, regardless of what they may or may not contain. Especially since each member of the LDS faith can receive their own “personal revelation,” which he or she can use to judge the truth of LDS doctrine for themselves, even after it’s gone through the process of being revealed, proclaimed and voted on and such.

It’s not an article of faith that other creeds are an abomination. The Savior said the word “abomination” when speaking to Joseph Smith. We do not dwell on the term. We recognize that all religions contain truth and were happy when they do.

Crdl2Grv:

Especially since each member of the LDS faith can receive their own “personal revelation,” which he or she can use to judge the truth of LDS doctrine for themselves, even after it’s gone through the process of being revealed, proclaimed and voted on and such.

Seems like your getting better at understanding personal revelation. Revelation is the rock upon which the church was built and progresses. No one can understand the LDS church if they do not understand personal revelation. One of the first things the missionaries ask someone investigating the church to do is read the Book of Mormon and pray to find out if it’s true. Joseph Smith once spoke to Martin Van Buren, who was then president of the United States. Here is what occurred, “In our interview with the President, he interrogated us wherein we differed in our religion from the other religions of the day. Brother Joseph said we differed in mode of baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. We considered that all other considerations were contained in the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (History of the Church, 4:42, emphasis added) Why? Because, "no man can receive the Holy Ghost without receiving revelations. The Holy Ghost is a revelator.” (History of the Church, 6:58) We would not and we dare not limit personal revelation to any individual.

Now, I unfortunately feel like I must qualify the above with respect to other religions lest I be misunderstood. I recognize that the Holy Ghost may from time to time reveal truths to all people. But, as you have pointed out, we in some respect differ in that we allow each person to receive personal revelation even to confirm our prophet’s words.

 

[zaffiroborant]

But, as you have pointed out, we in some respect differ in that we allow each person to receive personal revelation even to confirm our prophet’s words.

And if the personal revelation received contradicts your prophet?

 

[TheExorcist]

So it is an article of faith amongst the LDS that all other Christian creeds are “an abomination,” and yet the LDS faith does not have a creed of its own. So the real issue is with the mere existence of creeds, regardless of what they may or may not contain. Especially since each member of the LDS faith can receive their own “personal revelation,” which he or she can use to judge the truth of LDS doctrine for themselves, even after it’s gone through the process of being revealed, proclaimed and voted on and such.

My feeling in the past was that those “creeds” were developed councils which are looked at as suspect by the LDS because it’s essentially a body of men getting together to do whatever they’re together to do, and this is the important part, doing it WITHOUT valid priesthood (as the LDS see it).

 

[TexanKnight]

Actually, they have The Articles of Faith are is, in a sense, a creed. There are 13 “beliefs”. One of them is that they do not believe in the Bible.

 

[JHow]

Actually, they have The Articles of Faith are is, in a sense, a creed. There are 13 “beliefs”. One of them is that they do not believe in the Bible.

Glad you pointed this out. They have “13 Articles of Faith”, which pretty much all start with the words “We believe…”, which is to say a “creed” by definition, coming from the latin root credere, and all. But y’all know that…

mormon.org/articles-of-faith/

 

[theidler]

Given the slippery nature of Mormon teaching and doctrine, if I was a Mormon, I’d be absolutely dizzy out of my mind…I’d have no idea what the heck the Church actually foundationally held to after a while. It keeps changing!:whacky::hypno::stretcher:

 

[Janderich]

And if the personal revelation received contradicts your prophet?

Does the prophet speak the will of the Lord? Does the Holy Ghost do the same? If so then the question answers itself.

 

[KathleenGee]

TexanKnight…

That is why I think Mormons would gain more credibility, in regards to their articles of faith, one of them not of the Bible…

…that they just stop dabbling with Christianity, re-interpreting it according to their Mormon sources – which – only cause ongoing contradiction and change within Mormonism itself, and subsequently therefore, bringing about their own self-invalidation as a credible religion.

Mormonism is adept at mind games…

 

[TarkanAttila]

Revelation is the rock upon which the church was built and progresses. No one can understand the LDS church if they do not understand personal revelation. One of the first things the missionaries ask someone investigating the church to do is read the Book of Mormon and pray to find out if it’s true.

“Personal revelation” can be used to justify any number of things - even logical inconsistencies. Even murder. (Not that I’m saying any Mormon has actually used it to justify a murder.) I really hope you are joking about personal “revelation” being the foundation of your religion. I really do.

On the other hand, the crucifixion and resurrection is a historical truth, of certainty beyond compare with most other religions. The death and resurrection of Christ is the bedrock of all Christianity, [bibledrb]1 Corinthians 15:17[/bibledrb]

Christianity is built on the Apostles and what Christ revealed to* them*, in flesh and blood, attested to and affirmed by history. No personal “revelation” can override this, or we are not followers of Christ.

Now, I unfortunately feel like I must qualify the above with respect to other religions lest I be misunderstood. I recognize that the Holy Ghost may from time to time reveal truths to all people. But, as you have pointed out, we in some respect differ in that we allow each person to receive personal revelation even to confirm our prophet’s words.

We don’t deny personal revelations, of a genuine sort, can play a role in the life of Christ’s true Church. But it is neither foundational nor usually of major doctrinal impact. I believe that is the difference between your and my religion. Yours is led by revelation. Mine is led by THE Revelation of 2000 years - the coming of the Anointed One to forgive our sins.

 

[Janderich]

“Personal revelation” can be used to justify any number of things - even logical inconsistencies. Even murder. (Not that I’m saying any Mormon has actually used it to justify a murder.) I really hope you are joking about personal “revelation” being the foundation of your religion. I really do.

On the other hand, the crucifixion and resurrection is a historical truth, of certainty beyond compare with most other religions. The death and resurrection of Christ is the bedrock of all Christianity, [bibledrb]1 Corinthians 15:17[/bibledrb]

Christianity is built on the Apostles and what Christ revealed to* them*, in flesh and blood, attested to and affirmed by history. No personal “revelation” can override this, or we are not followers of Christ.

We don’t deny personal revelations, of a genuine sort, can play a role in the life of Christ’s true Church. But it is neither foundational nor usually of major doctrinal impact. I believe that is the difference between your and my religion. Yours is led by revelation. Mine is led by THE Revelation of 2000 years - the coming of the Anointed One to forgive our sins.

TarkanAttila, Revelation is an important piece of the foundation. It is not the only piece however. The church is also built on prophets and apostles with Christ himself being the chief cornerstone (see Eph 2:20). That is why we have apostles and prophets today.

Priesthood is another important piece. From before the creation of the world priesthood was held. It was given to Adam and passed down to the present day.

Another piece was ordinances. Baptism and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost among others.

I don’t know that were in disagreement much here. I’m sure we could argue about the details of what I am saying but probably not the main points.

 

[Janderich]

Actually, they have The Articles of Faith are is, in a sense, a creed. There are 13 “beliefs”. One of them is that they do not believe in the Bible.

TexanKnight, I answered this statement earlier in this thread (see post 93). Here is the main point:

The Articles of Faith do reflect what we already believe but our faith does not hinge on the statements. We do not recite, nor are we asked specifically to agree to them. With continuing revelation we may add to or clarify statements.

Your comment about us not believing the Bible is false. AofF 8: “We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly;…”

 

[theidler]

TexanKnight, I answered this statement earlier in this thread (see post 93). Here is the main point:

Your comment about us not believing the Bible is false. AofF 8: “We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly;…”

Continuing revelation…wow, that’s handy.

 

[TexanKnight]

TexanKnight, I answered this statement earlier in this thread (see post 93). Here is the main point:

Your comment about us not believing the Bible is false. AofF 8: “We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly;…”

Then my statement is TRUE. If you have to qualify your belief, then you do not believe.

Just like saying, “I love you, but…”

it is not true love.

So I was correct. You do not believe in the Bible.

 

[KathleenGee]

TexanKnight…

Thank you…and thank you for pointing out the proof by his response. I have been gleaning Mormon posts to understand their religion…and only recently have I come to my own conclusion that they do not truly believe in the Bible…or else their faith would indeed be akin to ours.

As said elsewhere, the Mormon sophists are now using Catholic sources to prove themselves while they still consider us the Great Roman Church…look at their recent misrepresentation on ‘The King James Bible’…that reflected the same prejudice and lack of historical truths that plagued the founders of Restorationist churches in the 1800’s…they are not restoring but further dismantling Christianity.

 

[Crdl2Grv]

Does the prophet speak the will of the Lord? Does the Holy Ghost do the same? If so then the question answers itself.

Um… no. No, it doesn’t. Because unless you’re willing to claim that no Mormon anywhere has ever received a personal revelation that has differed from the revelations received by LDS prophets, you have to admit that LDS theology allows for (indeed, it seems like you’re saying it actually encourages or even emphasizes) discrepancies between the two kinds of revelation.

If the LDS prophet and an individual Mormon both have equal ability to discern and “speak the will of the Lord,” then there is no need for an LDS prophet. If the LDS prophet has a greater ability to discern and “speak the will of the Lord” than an individual Mormon, then there’s no need to emphasize “personal revelation,” much less claim it as a “foundation” of faith.

 

[TexanKnight]

TexanKnight…

Thank you…and thank you for pointing out the proof by his response. I have been gleaning Mormon posts to understand their religion…and only recently have I come to my own conclusion that they do not truly believe in the Bible…or else their faith would indeed be akin to ours.

As said elsewhere, the Mormon sophists are now using Catholic sources to prove themselves while they still consider us the Great Roman Church…look at their recent misrepresentation on ‘The King James Bible’…that reflected the same prejudice and lack of historical truths that plagued the founders of Restorationist churches in the 1800’s…they are not restoring but further dismantling Christianity.

For years, trheir temple ceremony indicated Catholics were Satan’s messengers. Their own Apostle wrote a book before he was an Apostle (guess they liked what he wrote) called Mormon Doctrine where the Catholic Church was called the “Great and Abominable Church”. They try to act like none of that exists or existed as they try to become more mainstream, but we all know the truth that they tried to sugar coat.

 

[KathleenGee]

Wanting to be gods,when the Lord already walked with Adam and Eve face to face, now labelling Christ’s Tree of Life, the Sacraments in the Catholic Church–Christ’s restoration for us, lying and denying, deflecting, believing in charms like the peep hat and golden plates, and a false angel of light…St. Paul saying not to believe in any angel or else one is anathema…it is in the pot, and when you stir it, good is evil and evil is good.

 

[TexanKnight]

Wanting to be gods,when the Lord already walked with Adam and Eve face to face, now labelling Christ’s Tree of Life, the Sacraments in the Catholic Church–Christ’s restoration for us, lying and denying, deflecting, believing in charms like the peep hat and golden plates, and a false angel of light…St. Paul saying not to believe in any angel or else one is anathema…it is in the pot, and when you stir it, good is evil and evil is good.

Satan told Eve that they could become gods
Joseph Smith told his people they could become gods

Satan believes in the Bible…sort of
Joseph Smith taught to believe in the Bible…sort of…

Jesus said His Church would never be defeated
Joseph Smith says Jesus’ church WAS defeated…

Coincidence?

I urge my LDS brethren to leave that Church and we will welcome you with incredibly open arms to the true Church that Christ established before He left the earth and that He PROMISED would never be defeated. We will welcome you into fellowship that includes HIS body and HIS blood…We will welcome you into a fellowship that includes a loving Mother to whom we can go to for comfort and to whom we can as to aid us in our Petitions to God.

We will welcome you.

 

[KathleenGee]

Likewise, I pray and exhort the same for those who are seeking the Truth.

The Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago. He said He would never leave us, and gave us His Holy Spirit to guide us. Christ’s mercy extends far beyond the past sins of humanity, those of today, and those that will be committed tomorrow…including all Catholic priests and churchmen who sinned, and were forgiven by Christ Himself.

The Church never takes the place of God for one’s salvation, but nurtures us in the Word and Sacraments, and guides on the true path to heaven.

Seek the truth, pray for deliverance…Christ is here…He loves you…