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Pythons
Guest
LOL!
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Cirdan_XII
Guest
I had a teacher at school who said that the whole point of prophecies is not to accurately predict future events. That would go against the concept of free will. It is more about, when evil things do happen, that we can recognize that God had made allowance for this. Reading prophecies reminds us that even in times of evil, God has not forgotten us.
On the basis of that, we won’t fully understand the meaning of 666 until that evil thing it refers comes to be, and then we will understand and find comfort and hope in the prophecy.
On the basis of that, we won’t fully understand the meaning of 666 until that evil thing it refers comes to be, and then we will understand and find comfort and hope in the prophecy.
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LegoGE1947
Guest
I understand that the whole purpose behind Revelation and other prophetic writings was to bring God’s comfort to those who were being persecuted for their faith. Not so guys could go around to churches with huge charts attempting to predict when the 2nd coming is to occur!
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Starrsmother
Guest
I’ve been trying to read through the entire bible—believe it or not, I’m in my 60’s and a cradle Catholic and have never done so front-to-back before. Anyway, when you get to Revelations and read it–including the 666 thing–it occurs to me that it must all be symbolic. If some of the creatures described actually appear as described, the number 666 will be the very LEAST of our problems and almost everyone will know that something is really, really amiss–even the folks in D.C. as blind as they usually are!!!
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LegoGE1947
Guest
Best wishes on that effort to read the entire Bible!
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Pepband_Mom
Guest
Dr Scott Hahn has books & talks about Revelation…
I believe lots of what Rev predicts has already happened and it is a very Liturgical Book!
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Uli
Guest
Can the Adventists count? Lol, “Vicarius Filii Dei” has the numerical value 650! You have to subtract the left-standing digits. VIC(-(5+1)+100)ARIU(-1+5)S FILII (-1+50-1-1) DEI(1).
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arga
Guest
Adventists along with many other denominations have used the 666 = the pope name for a long time. The truth is that prophetically speaking, 666 is a number that relates to Babylonian numerology and it’s a reference to a pagan system. We can’t go beyond what the Bible says. There’s no conclusive knowledge about how the number and the mark of the beast relate other than whoever enforces the mark of the beast is the possessor of the number. Is that the pope? Don’t think so. My best guess is that it will be whoever is in charge when that socio-politico-religious power enforces some form of worship for currency or death.
As an Adventist, we believe it refers to the enforcement of Sunday as a day of worship or death penalty, but it’s up to time to tell if we are right or wrong about our interpretation of scripture. In short I don’t think the whole 666 applies to the pope. VICARIVS FILII DEI is one of the many details used, but I don’t think it’s what the Bible referred to, though I’m a minority in my group.
As an Adventist, we believe it refers to the enforcement of Sunday as a day of worship or death penalty, but it’s up to time to tell if we are right or wrong about our interpretation of scripture. In short I don’t think the whole 666 applies to the pope. VICARIVS FILII DEI is one of the many details used, but I don’t think it’s what the Bible referred to, though I’m a minority in my group.
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Porknpie
Guest
Welcome to CAF Argo.
It’s good that you are a minority in the SDA view that 666 has nothing to do with the Pope. To your point above, Ellen Gould White went beyond what the bible states in identifying the number 666 with the Pope. I refer to the article here which is from the Adventist Review, 1983, which includes the following:
“As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth”
As a SDA, are you not obligate to believe everything that EGW said if she was a prophet from God, an “authoritative source of Truth”?
There is a conflict here with reason. If she is wrong on the Pope being the anti-Christ & 666 …then she is not an authoritative source of truth.
There is a conflict here with faith as well. Christ promised that he would send the Holy Spirit to guide his Church to all Truth and that he would be with the Church until the end of time… and that the gates of hell would not prevail.
Truth is not found with EGW. Truth is found in the Church Christ established. The bible says explicity, that the Church contains the truth on faith and morals…not to be added or changed by someone 1800+ years later.
1 Timothy 3:15
15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
PnP
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arga
Guest
No offense PorkPie. As an Adventist, my duty is to uphold Christ’s ministry. As far as Ellen White’s ministry, this is what she said about her writings.
If the Testimonies speak not according to the word of God, reject them. — Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, p. 691
When you make the Bible your food… you will know better how to receive counsel from God. I exalt the precious word before you today. Do not repeat what I have said, saying, “Sister White said this,” and “Sister White said that.” Find out what the Lord God of Israel says, and then do what He commands.—Manuscript 43, 1901.
So based on her own words, I don’t see why people think we’re supposed to believe everything she says. I do believe that she had a message from God and so do many in the Catholic hierarchy and these are recorded in the testimonies for the church. As far as the rest of her writings, including her understanding of the 666, reflects the understanding that her and many theologians in her time had through Bible study. In this capacity, she was as fallible as anyone. Prophets aren’t immune to perplexity. Notice that even John the Baptist was unsure about the fulfillment of prophecy in Christ (Matthew 11:3). John thought prophecy out to fulfill a certain erroneous way, does that make all his testimony false? No, he just hadn’t understood the light perfectly at that time. So if anyone wants to reject Mrs. White’s testimonies or her collaborative research on health and lifestyle, they can do it. There’s no controversy on that. They won’t loose their soul for that.
As far as 1 Timothy 3:15, I believe the church is the pillar and foundation of truth, so long as it adheres to Christ. The Jews tried to appropriate God to themselves only as if God weren’t the God of all. Paul teaches that the Church of God isn’t restricted to only one race or even a church title, but that the true church or that the true Israel are those whose hearts are circumcised and not the flesh (Romans 2:25-29). The church of God isn’t restricted to the title Roman Catholic Church, Paul teaches that we are all Israelites adopted into God’s family. While the Catholic Church we know today had it’s origin and foundation in the Apostolic Church, it’s not without its faults. Why, because we are all human and fallible, church leaders included. I would venture and say pope Francis would agree with me on this.
The Jews think they were originated by God in Sinai and therefor the true church, Catholics claim similarly, and so do Muslims.
So the only thing that separates the true church and a false church is not a title but whether or not we keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12:17 and 14:12). I will not say that Catholics or even the pope are not part of the church of God based on a title, that’s pharisaism. God is the only judge of who his people are.
My hope is that when we’re both in heaven, that we can see eye to eye and realize that we’re there only because of Christ’s sacrifice and His mercy. Not because we practiced religion in one way or because of some church title. Notice that the Word of God doesn’t acknowledge any title of church except Christians? We’re all Christ’s.
If the Testimonies speak not according to the word of God, reject them. — Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, p. 691
When you make the Bible your food… you will know better how to receive counsel from God. I exalt the precious word before you today. Do not repeat what I have said, saying, “Sister White said this,” and “Sister White said that.” Find out what the Lord God of Israel says, and then do what He commands.—Manuscript 43, 1901.
So based on her own words, I don’t see why people think we’re supposed to believe everything she says. I do believe that she had a message from God and so do many in the Catholic hierarchy and these are recorded in the testimonies for the church. As far as the rest of her writings, including her understanding of the 666, reflects the understanding that her and many theologians in her time had through Bible study. In this capacity, she was as fallible as anyone. Prophets aren’t immune to perplexity. Notice that even John the Baptist was unsure about the fulfillment of prophecy in Christ (Matthew 11:3). John thought prophecy out to fulfill a certain erroneous way, does that make all his testimony false? No, he just hadn’t understood the light perfectly at that time. So if anyone wants to reject Mrs. White’s testimonies or her collaborative research on health and lifestyle, they can do it. There’s no controversy on that. They won’t loose their soul for that.
As far as 1 Timothy 3:15, I believe the church is the pillar and foundation of truth, so long as it adheres to Christ. The Jews tried to appropriate God to themselves only as if God weren’t the God of all. Paul teaches that the Church of God isn’t restricted to only one race or even a church title, but that the true church or that the true Israel are those whose hearts are circumcised and not the flesh (Romans 2:25-29). The church of God isn’t restricted to the title Roman Catholic Church, Paul teaches that we are all Israelites adopted into God’s family. While the Catholic Church we know today had it’s origin and foundation in the Apostolic Church, it’s not without its faults. Why, because we are all human and fallible, church leaders included. I would venture and say pope Francis would agree with me on this.
The Jews think they were originated by God in Sinai and therefor the true church, Catholics claim similarly, and so do Muslims.
So the only thing that separates the true church and a false church is not a title but whether or not we keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12:17 and 14:12). I will not say that Catholics or even the pope are not part of the church of God based on a title, that’s pharisaism. God is the only judge of who his people are.
My hope is that when we’re both in heaven, that we can see eye to eye and realize that we’re there only because of Christ’s sacrifice and His mercy. Not because we practiced religion in one way or because of some church title. Notice that the Word of God doesn’t acknowledge any title of church except Christians? We’re all Christ’s.
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Porknpie
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Arga -
We both believe the bible is the inspired and inerrant Word of God.
How do you know that it is?
PNP
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arga
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Well, there are several reasons. Among the many, I believe through faith, but in the Scripture, we read from Peter
"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:19-21
Prophecy confirms that God’s word is true because its fulfillment is recorded in history. Also, God wants faith, prophecy is given so that we believe, but the end goal is transformation of life into Christ’s image (the day star arises in our hearts). A Christian life is the greatest evidence of the veracity of the Word of God.
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. — Isaiah 8:20
If new words confirm the old ones, then they are true because God says so. That’s why I believe. You?
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Porknpie
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Arga -
As a Catholic, I believe all the quotes above. But none of the quotes above relate to how I know that the books of the bible are inspired and inerrant. In your case, 66 books. Peter above does not say what books should be in the bible (he died before they were all written). Another way of asking this question(s), how do you know that the Book of Revelation is inspired and inerrant and not the Didache or the Gospel of Thomas?
The bible does not say what books should be in the bible…so how do you know??
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
Here again with another thought:My response to the person who claims that the Pope is the Antichrist,
“Oh, you’d just ***:heart:LOVE:heart: ***that, wouldn’t you?”
And my *personal *intuition: They would just LOVE IT, LOVE IT, LOVE IT!
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Pilgrim1701
Guest
You forgot to count the U as a V.
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Porknpie
Guest
Yes, Catholics would agree with this which is why we reject Ellen White. The Word of God is contained both Written and the oral Apostolic Tradition (teachings) of the Church. Neither are conflict in Catholicism. St. Paul says that we should hold fast to both what is written and spoken. 2 Thessalonians 2 below
15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
Interesting that she did not say make the bible ALONE your food! Sola Scriptura is a false gospel, not seen in human history until the reformation. It’s a real problem because there was no bible until 400 ad. What did the early Christian do? And the bible itself never says anywhere that the bible alone should be our food. It does say that the pillar and foundation of Truth is the Church. There was no SDA Church when this was written. 1 Timothy 3 below
15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
So you are free to believe that she was completely wrong. If you can’t believe everything, that a prophet from God would speak the truth, always, how do you know what is right and what is wrong?
This is your opinion. My opinion and of many Catholics is that she hit her head on a rock and had serious problems afterwards.
Sources please
So in what capacity can she be right or wrong? If she is fallible on this, she can be fallible on anything. Christ promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide his Church to ALL TRUTH until the end of time and the gates of hell would not prevail. Ms White’s testimony conflicts with Christ’s promise
So we can reject her teachings on health, lifestyle and faith (666 as an example). Why not reject her completely…? What’s left?
The Catholic Church has always adhered to Christ. It’s guided by the Holy Spirit and Christ is the head of the Church.
T
Read scripture. Christ founded ONE church, singular, with St Peter as the head and the apostles as the first bishops. And we can see in this Church the seven Catholic sacraments including the Eucharist. There are lot’s of faults in the Church. Human faults. But Christ protects the Church infallibly on Faith and Morals. That is his promise. As examples, Abortion has always been wrong, in every case. Likewise, contraception is always wrong.
Yes agreed. But on faith and morals the Church is infallible, protected by Christ
Christ fulfilled the OT promises. He established in the NT a new covenant, extending all into his promise of salvation. To carryout this mission, he established his Catholic Church, with seven sacraments to give us the grace needed for our salvation.
that’s the subject of another thread…
CONTINUED…
PnP
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Porknpie
Guest
Arga - my response continued below from your earlier post
16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
”Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” Cyprian, To Florentius, Epistle 66/67 (A.D. 254).
By the way, I had a SDA room-mate for a year but that was many years ago. Great guy! I ate a lot of vegetarian food that year. Not all bad…not all good.
Now that’s a tradition not found in the bible either… 
That faith comes to us from the Catholic Church, passed on from Christ to the apostles and from the apostles to their descendants. It’s reflected in scripture through the words of Jesus Christ. Luke 10 below. If you are not following the faith and morals of the Catholic Church, then you are not hearing Christ, in fact you are rejecting him.
16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
God will judge us but salvation comes through his Catholic Church (you do know that you were baptized into the Catholic Church, yes?)
Christ did establish a Church singular. He is not the author of confusion, leading 40,000 Christian denominations to varying Truths on faith and morals. One of many quotes from the early Church fathers attest to this one Church. If you do not have Catholic Bishops and Priests, then you are not part of the Church Christ himself established (although you may have some truth in you but not the fullness of truth)
”Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” Cyprian, To Florentius, Epistle 66/67 (A.D. 254).
By the way, I had a SDA room-mate for a year but that was many years ago. Great guy! I ate a lot of vegetarian food that year. Not all bad…not all good.
Now that’s a tradition not found in the bible either…
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arga
Guest
Christ never gave his church a title other than Israel. We Gentiles were adopted and accepted into the promise given to Abraham. We we’re nicknamed Christians at Antioch, a nickname which we welcomed because it links us to Christ. But as far as where we have to worship, just like the Jews of old, some want to restrict worship to God in this mountain or that mountain. Peter as the leader is something we can argue forever, but it’s interesting to me how both Christ and Paul rebuked Peter on different occasions, signs of his fallibility, and also the final decisions in Church Councils were given by James.
I think Christ’s words say it all, “Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what:we know what we worship:for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth:for the Father seeketh such to worship him.” John 4:21-23
As far as Ellen White’s concerned, I already said, feel free to reject her testimony. I’ve never brought her writings to prove anything we believe in. Ellen White counsels us to look to the Scriptures for guidance, but some keep looking at the finger instead of where the finger is pointing at.
Now, as far as Sola Scriptura, the claim is that it is false teaching. Why? While I believe that God doesn’t communicate with man only through the Scriptures, why would it be wrong to place all my faith upon the Word of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit? At the least, their Words should constitute the foundation for anything else added afterwards.
Read the word, “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” Isaiah 8:20 The same prophet from which Christ himself quotes.
Anything else in the New Testament must agree with the Old. The OT testifies of Christ. But if the testimony of some, though they be considered Scriptures by some, must stand the test of the Old Testament. The Old Testament is what the early Christians and the Apostles themselves taught from. It is what Christ himself used. It is how he overcame Satan in the desert.
Read Psalm 119, it’s all about the Word of God. Since the beginning, God’s Word has always been the foundation of our faith. Any time men departed from it, Apostasy has been the inevitable result. Anyone else, has to build upon what God has said. If men come centuries later change it, they must be rejected. I reject none of the other Scriptures not included into the 66 canon, so long as they agree with the Old Testament’s, The Word of God, and the Words of the Apostles which Christ commissioned personally. Yes I believe others whom the Spirit inspires will bring more light, but it will not deny the previous light.
God has never made a mistake. He does not change his mind. and the Words of God abide forever. “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” Isaiah 8:20
And to that person out there, why would I want the pope to be the antichrist? The Bible doesn’t say the pope is the antichrist. All John said is that the antichrists are those who claim Jesus is not come in the flesh. If the pope hasn’t claimed this, then he’s not the antichrist. Right?
I think Christ’s words say it all, “Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what:we know what we worship:for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth:for the Father seeketh such to worship him.” John 4:21-23
As far as Ellen White’s concerned, I already said, feel free to reject her testimony. I’ve never brought her writings to prove anything we believe in. Ellen White counsels us to look to the Scriptures for guidance, but some keep looking at the finger instead of where the finger is pointing at.
Now, as far as Sola Scriptura, the claim is that it is false teaching. Why? While I believe that God doesn’t communicate with man only through the Scriptures, why would it be wrong to place all my faith upon the Word of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit? At the least, their Words should constitute the foundation for anything else added afterwards.
Read the word, “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” Isaiah 8:20 The same prophet from which Christ himself quotes.
Anything else in the New Testament must agree with the Old. The OT testifies of Christ. But if the testimony of some, though they be considered Scriptures by some, must stand the test of the Old Testament. The Old Testament is what the early Christians and the Apostles themselves taught from. It is what Christ himself used. It is how he overcame Satan in the desert.
Read Psalm 119, it’s all about the Word of God. Since the beginning, God’s Word has always been the foundation of our faith. Any time men departed from it, Apostasy has been the inevitable result. Anyone else, has to build upon what God has said. If men come centuries later change it, they must be rejected. I reject none of the other Scriptures not included into the 66 canon, so long as they agree with the Old Testament’s, The Word of God, and the Words of the Apostles which Christ commissioned personally. Yes I believe others whom the Spirit inspires will bring more light, but it will not deny the previous light.
God has never made a mistake. He does not change his mind. and the Words of God abide forever. “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” Isaiah 8:20
And to that person out there, why would I want the pope to be the antichrist? The Bible doesn’t say the pope is the antichrist. All John said is that the antichrists are those who claim Jesus is not come in the flesh. If the pope hasn’t claimed this, then he’s not the antichrist. Right?
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Porknpie
Guest
Arga, true but those that he appointed to lead his Church called themselves Catholic in writing by no later than 110ad. Christ didn’t have to give his Church a name but keep in mind that he created a Church, singular with authority and structure.
and by receiving the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ in the Eucharist we worship him as he intended. Receiving Christ in the Eucharist began at the Last Supper and he continued ever since.
Fallible as a sinner but Peter’s office is protected by Christ himself on Faith and Morals. Are you referring to Acts15? If so, you are missing the link to the earlier passage where it is Peter who speak authoritatively and afterwards everyone is silent…in agreement with Peter. It is only then in his position as Bishop of Jerusalem that James speaks. Peter made the decision and everyone listened.
6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 and after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us; 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”
12** And all the assembly kept silence; **and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13 After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brethren, listen to me. 14 Symeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, as it is written,
16 ‘After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the dwelling of David, which has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will set it up,
17 that the rest of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
18 says the Lord, who has made these things known from of old.’
PnP
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