Is the Ontological Argument too good to be true?

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The OA proposition is:

God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived.

Is the OA: nothing more than, out-of-my-mind-into-existence? If the logic is valid (as it certainly appears to be) and my (our) logic can “bring” God into existence, so to speak, is the conceptualization of the proposition simply too good to be true? And/or, is our idea of the logic involved invalid or incorrect? And/or, is our concept of logic, as a species of the genus thought, invalid or incorrect?

I have always liked the argument, but, I have also had the common doubt concerns with it. I am not a logician, therefore, I do not know and cannot reason out the “laws of logic".

What are the laws of logic, with regard to this proposition at least, and why are they “laws”? I’m not asking for an entire course on logic, however, I don’t think the answers will be short and sweet.

If the OA is found to be invalid, how might that awareness affect someone’s faith?

JD
 
Perhaps no one has jumped into this because there seem to be quite a few different questions? Maybe narrowing down the OP could help a bit?
 
The more I think about this the less persuasive it is - unless not having been trained in logic I’m lacking understanding.

Does this imply that if I can think of a pink elephant wearing a tutu, speaking chinese and playing a tambourine then it exists somewhere ‘out there’?
 
The more I think about this the less persuasive it is - unless not having been trained in logic I’m lacking understanding.

Does this imply that if I can think of a pink elephant wearing a tutu, speaking chinese and playing a tambourine then it exists somewhere ‘out there’?
No. 🙂 Anselm pointed out that his argument would apply only to a Being who is non-physical, non-time-oriented, therefore has no space or time features, and possesses all perfections, and therefore can’t change. Only God qualifies.

Another Christian monk, Gaunilo, made an argument similar to yours, except he used the example of a perfect island. Anselm’s reply to him is a little tangled, IMHO, but the essence is like what I said in the first paragraph.
 
Oh, okay. Thanks for that. I’ll try and track it down. It’ll be on t’internet n’doubt!
 
The OA is logically sound.

It is also meaningless.

Your pre-disposed idea of the GCB, pretty much defines the argument itself.
 
The OA is logically sound.

It is also meaningless.

Your pre-disposed idea of the GCB, pretty much defines the argument itself.
Well, yeah. But that’s the point, right? If God is the GCB, then God exists. For the purposes of any discussion of the topic, we concede that God is the GCB. Therefore God exists.

Of course the hinge is the conditional: “IF God is the GCB.” But if someone wants to deny that conditional, what is the “better” definition of God?
 
Well, yeah. But that’s the point, right? If God is the GCB, then God exists. For the purposes of any discussion of the topic, we concede that God is the GCB. Therefore God exists.
Not quite.

You have a pre-concieved idea of what God is, then you use the OA to prove he exists.

The OA, is not a purpose for discussion for an athiest, because it is meaningless.
Of course the hinge is the conditional: “IF God is the GCB.” But if someone wants to deny that conditional, what is the “better” definition of God?
It doesn’t matter, what is a better definition of God. The point is…the OA, renders the entire concept of God meaningless.

You try and claim a logical argument that God exists, when all you are doing is using a word.

Use “flying spaghetti monster” in place of “god” in that argument and you will still find it is logcially accurate.

Of couse, if you use “Flying spaghetti monster”, to YOU it will be meaningless. Welcome to athiesm 🙂
 
Not quite.

You have a pre-concieved idea of what God is, then you use the OA to prove he exists.

The OA, is not a purpose for discussion for an athiest, because it is meaningless.

It doesn’t matter, what is a better definition of God. The point is…the OA, renders the entire concept of God meaningless.

You try and claim a logical argument that God exists, when all you are doing is using a word.

Use “flying spaghetti monster” in place of “god” in that argument and you will still find it is logcially accurate.

Of couse, if you use “Flying spaghetti monster”, to YOU it will be meaningless. Welcome to athiesm 🙂
Dame Edna:

You are off topic. Also, your post is offensive, argumentative, rude, harassing, and sacreligious.

It is interesting that your argument could be stated without the underlying tonal intentions, and then, perhaps, worthy of discussion herein. However, that was not the case.

Your post is nothing more than an assemblage of unsupported, mean-spirited declarations. Your purposes are to “side-track” and to engender “argumentation” (not honest debate).

As this is my thread, I will ask you to remain on topic and to debate in a much more charitable tone.

Of course, you could start your own thread and do whatever you want - to a point.

Merry Christmas and
God Bless you,
JD
 
Not quite.

You have a pre-concieved idea of what God is, then you use the OA to prove he exists.

The OA, is not a purpose for discussion for an athiest, because it is meaningless.

It doesn’t matter, what is a better definition of God. The point is…the OA, renders the entire concept of God meaningless.

You try and claim a logical argument that God exists, when all you are doing is using a word.

Use “flying spaghetti monster” in place of “god” in that argument and you will still find it is logcially accurate.

Of couse, if you use “Flying spaghetti monster”, to YOU it will be meaningless. Welcome to athiesm 🙂
Well, not really. A flying spaghetti monster would have extension in space, would exist in time, would therefore be mutable, and so on.

Therefore, it or anything like it could NOT be the Greatest Conceivable Being.

P.S. Is Dawkins the one who coined the spaghetti monster thing? I’m starting to think about him that he really does not understand theistic philosophy at all. This actually makes me feel more charitable toward him; perhaps he is not really rejecting God, but rejecting what he thinks God is. 🤷
 
The Ontological Argument does not work. I think that some of Thomas Aquinas’s proofs work (perhaps not all), but Anselm didn’t get it.

Yes I can imagine a being greater than which nothing can be conceived, and yes, I would have to assume this being has actual existence, but there is simply no logical connection that necessitates this “idea of actual existence” actually being actual existence. “Actual existence” can remain an imaginary property of this being in my mind and does not imply that this being exists outside my imagination.
 
According to wiki the fsm was invented in 2003 as a satirical device in response to the whole teaching of evolution debacle in Texas.
 
The Ontological Argument does not work. I think that some of Thomas Aquinas’s proofs work (perhaps not all), but Anselm didn’t get it.

Yes I can imagine a being greater than which nothing can be conceived, and yes, I would have to assume this being has actual existence, but there is simply no logical connection that necessitates this “idea of actual existence” actually being actual existence. “Actual existence” can remain an imaginary property of this being in my mind and does not imply that this being exists outside my imagination.
I think I tend to agree with you. However, one thing the OA does do, in my judgment, is raise the ante a bit on discussions of God’s existence. In other words, what the OA proves is not that God exists (perhaps), but rather that EITHER God necessarily exists OR ELSE it is necessary that God does not exist. So either God HAS TO exist or God CANNOT exist.

Which means that an atheist would have to demonstrate not just that it is unlikely God exists, but that it is impossible. If it is not the case that God cannot exist, the alternative remains that God has to exist.
 
I think I tend to agree with you. However, one thing the OA does do, in my judgment, is raise the ante a bit on discussions of God’s existence. In other words, what the OA proves is not that God exists (perhaps), but rather that EITHER God necessarily exists OR ELSE it is necessary that God does not exist. So either God HAS TO exist or God CANNOT exist.

Which means that an atheist would have to demonstrate not just that it is unlikely God exists, but that it is impossible. If it is not the case that God cannot exist, the alternative remains that God has to exist.
I don’t think I can agree with that. If the OA makes a logically erroneous jump between imagined existence and actual existence, it doesn’t prove much of anything. You seem to be concluding that agnosticism would no longer be an option, which, while obviously not being an agnostic myself, I cannot logically accept on the basis of the OA. If the OA is logically invalid, it has no value (except historical).
 
I don’t think I can agree with that. If the OA makes a logically erroneous jump between imagined existence and actual existence, it doesn’t prove much of anything. You seem to be concluding that agnosticism would no longer be an option, which, while obviously not being an agnostic myself, I cannot logically accept on the basis of the OA. If the OA is logically invalid, it has no value (except historical).
Fair enough. But look at it this way:

What the OA does first of all is define what we’re arguing about when we argue about God’s existence. The best definition we have is “Supreme Being” or “Greatest Conceivable Being.”

The OA then argues that necessary existence would be an attribute of the GCB. If the GCB does not possess necessary existence, it would not be the GCB.

This doesn’t prove that God exists. But what it does show is that if God exists now, God has to exist, necessarily.

On the other hand, if God does not exist now, God could not come into existence in the future. If so, God would not be a necessarily existing being, but contingent, and so again would not be the GCB.

Either God exists now or not. This would entail that either God exists now, necessarily, or cannot exist at all, ever (because God does not exist and cannot come into existence).

This is what I posted earlier that I thought the OA does: it makes it either that God exists now necessarily or CANNOT exist. The option of agnosticism which you mentioned is still open, but limited; it would just mean that the agnostic does not have an argument for God’s existence being impossible, but thinks that such an argument could arise sometime.

If, on the other hand, God’s existence is not impossible, then by this argument it would be entailed.
 
I see what you mean now, and I agree. I just wouldn’t credit the OA with establishing that God’s existence is necessary is existence, but I suppose it does mention it.
 
The Ontological Argument does not work. I think that some of Thomas Aquinas’s proofs work (perhaps not all), but Anselm didn’t get it.
Yes I can imagine a being greater than which nothing can be conceived, and yes, I would have to assume this being has actual existence, but there is simply no logical connection that necessitates this “idea of actual existence” actually being actual existence. “Actual existence” can remain an imaginary property of this being in my mind and does not imply that this being exists outside my imagination.
What you are saying it that the Ontological Argument equivocates by changing the meaning of the term “actual existence” from an “idea (or possibility) of actual existence” to “the fact (reality of) actually existing.” If this is true, then yes, the argument would be invalid (because it equivocates). Logical proofs that equivocate are worthless for any purpose. They could even be thought deceptive.

However, the argument could be interpreted as a case of “begging the question”, in which case the argument would be valid, have pedagogical value, but be worthless as a proof because arguments that beg the question never prove anything. To make the argument beg the question, we could make the first premise leading into the argument state an assumption that God (as Christians define God) exists. Then, assuming God (as Christians define God) exists; “God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived” would be true because it begs the question.With the first premise in place, the argument is valid (begging the question is always valid/it merely proves nothing), not deceptive and can be of pedagogical value (useful for instruction of novices, preaching to the choir, helping someone else understand your position, etc.).

Now let’s look at the case of St. Anselm of Canterbury. In his argument, we note that St. Anselm assumed the truth of the statement: “It is greater to exist than not to exist.” He then described two kinds of existence: existence in the mind and existence in reality. Next, he shows that it is possible for something to exist in the mind and also in reality by describing a painter who visualizes his painting before he paints it and then sees the painting of his vision. Finally, St. Anselm also assumes the truth of the statement “To exist in reality is greater than to exist in the mind.” Now, here’s a summary of St. Anselm’s argument.
  1. God is “that than which nothing greater can be conceived.” The Psalmist, however, tells us that “The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God’ ” (Psalm 14:1; 53:1). Is it possible to convince the fool that he is wrong? It is. All we need is the characterization of God as “that than which nothing greater can be conceived.” The fool does at least understand that definition.
  2. But whatever is understood exists in the understanding, just as the plan of a painting he has yet to execute already exists in the understanding of the painter. So that than which nothing greater can be thought exists in the understanding.
  3. But if that than which nothing greater can be thought exists in the understanding, it must also exist in reality. For it is greater to exist in reality than to exist merely in the understanding. Therefore, if that than which nothing greater can be thought existed only in the understanding, it would be possible to think of something greater than it (namely, that same being existing in reality as well).
  4. It follows, then, that if that than which nothing greater can be thought existed only in the understanding, it would not be that than which nothing greater can be thought; and that, obviously, is a contradiction.
  5. So that than which nothing greater can be thought must exist in reality, not merely in the understanding.
  6. Therefore God exists.
My analysis: St. Anselm’s argument equivocates because the argument that “that than which nothing greater can be thought existing in the understanding” can only truly be “that than which nothing greater can be thought” if it also existed in reality doesn’t prove that “it truly exists in reality” because it changes the definition of “that than which nothing can be thought” during the course of the argument. (It could be that the person who thought it only thought it existed and was wrong.) In the first part of the supposed contradiction (see #4 above), “that than which nothing greater can be thought” must be defined as “the greatest possible mental image that one could come up with if one assumed it to be true.” In the second part of the same statement, “that than which nothing greater can be thought” must be defined as “the reality (if it were true) that no mental image could be greater than.” These are not the same. To change the definition during the course of an argument is equivocation. The argument is invalid as stated.

Therefore, if my analysis is correct, you are right! Nice job.

Merry Christmas, and God bless.
 
Maybe I’m too simple, but what bible verse are you connecting to these “phrases”? I cannot understand what you are trying to say? I think you are saying the GCB is God, but maybe it is Jesus.

What religion does not have God existing now? I’m lost on your logic?

Thanks
Leroy
Fair enough. But look at it this way:

What the OA does first of all is define what we’re arguing about when we argue about God’s existence. The best definition we have is “Supreme Being” or “Greatest Conceivable Being.”

The OA then argues that necessary existence would be an attribute of the GCB. If the GCB does not possess necessary existence, it would not be the GCB.

This doesn’t prove that God exists. But what it does show is that if God exists now, God has to exist, necessarily.

On the other hand, if God does not exist now, God could not come into existence in the future. If so, God would not be a necessarily existing being, but contingent, and so again would not be the GCB.

Either God exists now or not. This would entail that either God exists now, necessarily, or cannot exist at all, ever (because God does not exist and cannot come into existence).

This is what I posted earlier that I thought the OA does: it makes it either that God exists now necessarily or CANNOT exist. The option of agnosticism which you mentioned is still open, but limited; it would just mean that the agnostic does not have an argument for God’s existence being impossible, but thinks that such an argument could arise sometime.

If, on the other hand, God’s existence is not impossible, then by this argument it would be entailed.
 
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