Is the pencil real?

  • Thread starter Thread starter lemondiesel
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
L

lemondiesel

Guest
You could give me a long description of the pencil with all the details. You could even take that pencil and throw it at my face. Yet in the end, does the pencil even exist? Or does the person describing the pencil even exist? Am I at fault for not accepting that either exist? Both you and the pencil could be manifestations created by my mind. All of the details explained about the pencil might just be projections of my own thoughts, which are placed into the person my mind as created and then received back.

What if I am just a manifestation of your mind? Does this forum even exist? Or is everyone their own neuron in your head?

At the end of the day, how can you prove to me that the pencil is real? Are all my concepts and beliefs based on assumptions?

I don’t know… Hopefully one person gets it…
 
lemondiesel said:
You could give me a long description of the pencil with all the details. You could even take that pencil and throw it at my face. Yet in the end, does the pencil even exist? Or does the person describing the pencil even exist? Am I at fault for not accepting that either exist? Both you and the pencil could be manifestations created by my mind. All of the details explained about the pencil might just be projections of my own thoughts, which are placed into the person my mind as created and then received back.

What if I am just a manifestation of your mind? Does this forum even exist? Or is everyone their own neuron in your head?

At the end of the day, how can you prove to me that the pencil is real? Are all my concepts and beliefs based on assumptions?

I don’t know… Hopefully one person gets it…
Click to expand...
… and his name was Rene.
 
lemondiesel said:
At the end of the day, how can you prove to me that the pencil is real? Are all my concepts and beliefs based on assumptions?

I don’t know… Hopefully one person gets it…
Click to expand...
Why would something LESS immediately REAL than the pencil be required to serve as “proof” for the immediacy and reality of the pencil?

Perhaps it is more sensible to accept the pencil and not demand “proof” for it, but, rather, ask what the significance of the pencil is.

What is it, really? And what, precisely, are you, really?
 
lemondiesel said:
You could give me a long description of the pencil with all the details. You could even take that pencil and throw it at my face. Yet in the end, does the pencil even exist? Or does the person describing the pencil even exist? Am I at fault for not accepting that either exist? Both you and the pencil could be manifestations created by my mind. All of the details explained about the pencil might just be projections of my own thoughts, which are placed into the person my mind as created and then received back.

What if I am just a manifestation of your mind? Does this forum even exist? Or is everyone their own neuron in your head?

At the end of the day, how can you prove to me that the pencil is real? Are all my concepts and beliefs based on assumptions?

I don’t know… Hopefully one person gets it…
Click to expand...
It might be hard to prove that the pencil exists, but it seems easy to prove that you should believe that it exists. Use a modified Pascal’s Wager. Think: what would be the consequences of correctly or mistakenly believing that the pencil does or does not exist?
 
In my reality all these things exist. The questions to me would be, that if they don’t truly exist, where is this false reality being developed and why?
 
It’s impossible to say if the pencil is real. Indeed, it’s impossible to say if anything is real. But in the end, does it really matter? In the end you’ll laugh, and you’ll cry, and you’ll despair, and you’ll hope, and you’ll struggle, and you’ll pray. You’ll live, and you’ll grow old, and you’ll die. And that is the beauty of life, be it real or illusion, that you will have known the glory of having lived. The question is, without the experiences of life, are you real either? Can you separate one from the other? If the pencil has made you wonder, then that is evidence enough that it is real.
 
If I stabbed you through the eye with the pencil, what would you make of its existence then?

-ACEGC
 
lemondiesel said:
You could give me a long description of the pencil with all the details. You could even take that pencil and throw it at my face. Yet in the end, does the pencil even exist? Or does the person describing the pencil even exist? Am I at fault for not accepting that either exist? Both you and the pencil could be manifestations created by my mind. All of the details explained about the pencil might just be projections of my own thoughts, which are placed into the person my mind as created and then received back.

What if I am just a manifestation of your mind? Does this forum even exist? Or is everyone their own neuron in your head?

At the end of the day, how can you prove to me that the pencil is real? Are all my concepts and beliefs based on assumptions?

I don’t know… Hopefully one person gets it…
Click to expand...
You are right. It’s hard to prove the pencil is actually real. But if I throw it at your face, you better at least act as if its real, lest you lose an eye 😉

Whether or not its actually real, what advantage is there in acting as if it isn’t real?

Ever heard of Pascal’s wager?
 
When he to whom one speaks does not understand, and he who speaks himself does not understand, that is metaphysics.

-Voltaire

Metaphysics is a restaurant where they give you a thirty thousand page menu, and no food.

-Robert M. Pirsig

:takeoff:
 
lemondiesel said:
You could give me a long description of the pencil with all the details. You could even take that pencil and throw it at my face. Yet in the end, does the pencil even exist? Or does the person describing the pencil even exist? Am I at fault for not accepting that either exist? Both you and the pencil could be manifestations created by my mind. All of the details explained about the pencil might just be projections of my own thoughts, which are placed into the person my mind as created and then received back.

What if I am just a manifestation of your mind? Does this forum even exist? Or is everyone their own neuron in your head?

At the end of the day, how can you prove to me that the pencil is real? Are all my concepts and beliefs based on assumptions?

I don’t know… Hopefully one person gets it…
Click to expand...
You’re an idiot. If you can’t accept the existence of the world around you, then you are an idiot who is completely incapable of having a rational discussion. All rational discussion is based on the assumption of the existence of the material universe. So congratulations, you are a moron. I hope you are offended, because if you aren’t then there is no hope for you. When reason fails the only thing left is emotion.

edward_george gave the proper response. The only thing that would convince you of the existence of the pencil would be if someone stabbed you in the eye with it. At that point there is no denying its existence. The pain makes it perfectly clear to you that it exists. You might be dumb enough to question it afterward, but in the moment you are quite certain that the pencil exists.
 
lemondiesel said:
You could give me a long description of the pencil with all the details. You could even take that pencil and throw it at my face. Yet in the end, does the pencil even exist? Or does the person describing the pencil even exist? Am I at fault for not accepting that either exist? Both you and the pencil could be manifestations created by my mind. All of the details explained about the pencil might just be projections of my own thoughts, which are placed into the person my mind as created and then received back.

What if I am just a manifestation of your mind? Does this forum even exist? Or is everyone their own neuron in your head?

At the end of the day, how can you prove to me that the pencil is real? Are all my concepts and beliefs based on assumptions?

I don’t know… Hopefully one person gets it…
Click to expand...
What is existence? You can perceive interactions with it, and the person describing it. Could it all be an elabourate illusion that doesn’t exist outside your mind? Yes. Are you at fault for ignoring your perceptions when there is no valid reason to do so? Also a yes.

For all practical purposes whether it is an illusion doesn’t matter though. Even if objective existence of the pencil were not true, you interact with it; it exists in some manner. Ideas exist. Thoughts exist. The pencil exists. The person exists.

The truth behind the physical existence of these things is also either objectively true or false. If the pencil has a physical presence and you fail to perceive it, it still exists. Such things are not dependent on philosophical debate, it either is or isn’t.

I can’t prove that it’s real if you are unwilling to accept that it is. It’s not worth my time to try, and it never will be.
 
jimmy said:
You’re an idiot. If you can’t accept the existence of the world around you, then you are an idiot who is completely incapable of having a rational discussion. All rational discussion is based on the assumption of the existence of the material universe. So congratulations, you are a moron. I hope you are offended, because if you aren’t then there is no hope for you. When reason fails the only thing left is emotion.

edward_george gave the proper response. The only thing that would convince you of the existence of the pencil would be if someone stabbed you in the eye with it. At that point there is no denying its existence. The pain makes it perfectly clear to you that it exists. You might be dumb enough to question it afterward, but in the moment you are quite certain that the pencil exists.
Click to expand...
Seriously? In what way is this personal attack appropriate? Reported.
 
Peter_Plato said:
… and his name was Rene.
Click to expand...
If you missed the allusion, this wise poster was referring to Rene Descartes, a philosopher most famous for his questioning of all experience back to his famous quote Cogito ergo sum… I think therefore I exist.Unfortunately he couldn’t get far past this with the form of reasoning he adopted.
Good Luck with your same reasoning.
 
Petaro said:
If you missed the allusion, this wise poster was referring to Rene Descartes, a philosopher most famous for his questioning of all experience back to his famous quote Cogito ergo sum… I think therefore I exist.Unfortunately he couldn’t get far past this with the form of reasoning he adopted.
Good Luck with your same reasoning.
Click to expand...
👍

I had a teacher once who liked to change it up a bit: I think therefore I am confused.

That appears to be accurate when following his train of thought. 🙂

Edit: I thought this picture might better explain my views on this sort of debate.
smbc-comics.com/?id=1879
 
Peter_Plato said:
Why would something LESS immediately REAL than the pencil be required to serve as “proof” for the immediacy and reality of the pencil?

Perhaps it is more sensible to accept the pencil and not demand “proof” for it, but, rather, ask what the significance of the pencil is.

What is it, really? And what, precisely, are you, really?
Click to expand...
Am I what creates the significance of the pencil?
edward_george said:
If I stabbed you through the eye with the pencil, what would you make of its existence then?

-ACEGC
Click to expand...
Could I say that the situation might be self inflicted? Maybe my mind created you, much like someone who has multiple personalities? It wouldn’t just be you though, it’d be everything.
jimmy said:
You’re an idiot. If you can’t accept the existence of the world around you, then you are an idiot who is completely incapable of having a rational discussion. All rational discussion is based on the assumption of the existence of the material universe. So congratulations, you are a moron. I hope you are offended, because if you aren’t then there is no hope for you. When reason fails the only thing left is emotion.

edward_george gave the proper response. The only thing that would convince you of the existence of the pencil would be if someone stabbed you in the eye with it. At that point there is no denying its existence. The pain makes it perfectly clear to you that it exists. You might be dumb enough to question it afterward, but in the moment you are quite certain that the pencil exists.
Click to expand...
You taking the time to attack beliefs I don’t actually hold really offends me.
 
lemondiesel said:
Am I what creates the significance of the pencil?

Could I say that the situation might be self inflicted? Maybe my mind created you, much like someone who has multiple personalities? It wouldn’t just be you though, it’d be everything.

You taking the time to attack beliefs I don’t actually hold really offends me.
Click to expand...
You’re offended by an idea in your own head? I am just an idea and so is the post. I am glad that you can feel offended; that’s a good sign.
 
There is no logical argument that can prove solipsism wrong because solipsism is the denial of the basic ground of all logical reasoning. The only thing that proves it wrong is raw emotion. Pain or joy or whatever other emotion that gets the person beyond thinking. When it comes down to it, solipsism is the product of thinking too much.
 
Consider what would happen even if you embraced full-blown solipsism. You’d still enjoy eating food, even though it isn’t real. Paper cuts would still be irritating, even though they aren’t real. Pop bands would still be overrated, even though they aren’t real, and the list goes on. Life would largely continue marching on as normal.

The point is that, so long as the experiences associated with an object are inevitable, it makes no difference whether you wish to deem the object real. You’ll act as if it’s real regardless. So perhaps a decent, preliminary definition of “reality” is “that which the subject could possibly experience”.

You could make this understanding of reality coincide with our usual understanding by factoring in the existence of other subjects and calling “reality” the collection of possible experiences that we have in common (this would eliminate delusions that are unique to an individual).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top