Is the physical body a 'prison' for the soul?

[LegoGE1947]

More likely from Platonism, which is far more mixed into the present culture than Gnosticism.

The present culture considers the mind/soul/spirit to be the human being, and the body just a four-limbed conveyance to walk the soul through life. If everybody realized that they do not have bodies, but are bodies; there could be no sense of “having the wrong body!”

Per the OQ: No, your body does not imprison your mind; it literally makes you someBODY!

ICXC NIKA

Some Protestants teach that man is a spirit, who has a soul and lives in a body. They claim as a “proof text” one of Paul’s letters to the Thessalonians where he said “may your whole spirit soul and body be preserved blameless” or words to that effect.

 

[GEddie]

I suspect it all happened during the fall in the Garden of Eden. When God makes “garments of skin” He is clothing Adam and Eve in bodies of skin. I suspect that Adam and Eve were pure spirits prior to the fall.

Nope, that’s wrong.

They sinned through eating, and you cannot eat unless you have a body.

They were naked, and to be naked you need your skin.

And death is meaningless as a PUNISHMENT if one is already dead (bodiless).

ICXC NIKA

 

[GEddie]

Scripture confirms the body is the prison of the soul (the Wisdom of Solomon
“The mortal body imprisons the soul, and this vessel of clay weighs down the teeming mind”

The Saints also confirm it. Saint Francis of Asissi often prayer to be delivered from the “wretched prison of the body”. John of the Cross (a Doctor of the Church) says that due to Original Sin, the soul is cast into the dark dungeon of the body.

It is also confirmed by philosophy- Plato, Cicero, Epitetus, Marcus Aurelius, E.M. Cioran.

It is NOT Gnosticism- Gnosticism is a doctrine which believes that salvation is achieved ‘Gnosis’ or a esoteric knowledge. That is what made Gnosticism a heresy. It just happens that, on this essential point of doctrine, the Gnostics happen to agree with Scripture and the saints on this point. The Gnostics also thought that Jesus was the Christ- but that does not make that an error.

Obviously, in the body we are subject to hunger, to the need for material necessities, to illness, to pain, to lust. I think it would be great to be a disembodied soul, free of pain, hunger, desire, to cast aside this worn out and uncomfortable set of fleshly clothes, to open the doors of the cage and let the soul fly free like a bird to the Heavens.

Jesus said- “It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh has nothing to offer.”

And yet HE reclaimed His human body from death!

The body is not just failing organs and hormonal needs; it also is your limbs, nose, eyes, head.

The soul cannOt “fly” or even move alone. Movement and wiggling are done by the limbs of your body.

The soul cannot see or smell without the eyes and nose of your body.

It cannot know or remember without the head of your body.

We are not spirits. You were always made to be someBODY.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

Matter is not evil. Our salvation was achieved through matter, as St. John of Damascus said. Whosoever believes matter is evil in and of itself is gnostic.

The seperation of soul and body is unnatural. That’s why we will get our bodies back with the resurrection of the dead.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Nope, that’s wrong.

They sinned through eating, and you cannot eat unless you have a body.

They were naked, and to be naked you need your skin.

And death is meaningless as a PUNISHMENT if one is already dead (bodiless).

ICXC NIKA

All these things could be analogies.

 

[GEddie]

All these things could be analogies.

Not the third.

Death is only meaningful as a threat if you are alive. To be alive, you need a body. Bodies are the life-holding mechanism.

“Spirits” are not alive, so threatening them with death makes no sense.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Robert_Sock]

Not the third.

Death is only meaningful as a threat if you are alive. To be alive, you need a body. Bodies are the life-holding mechanism.

“Spirits” are not alive, so threatening them with death makes no sense.

ICXC NIKA

Spirits are indeed alive, yes. Please elaborate on your position that spirits are not alive. Where did you get this?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Nope, that’s wrong.

They sinned through eating, and you cannot eat unless you have a body.

They were naked, and to be naked you need your skin.

And death is meaningless as a PUNISHMENT if one is already dead (bodiless).

ICXC NIKA

Death is not a punishment, it is a consequence of sin.

 

[apfal]

Scripture confirms the body is the prison of the soul (the Wisdom of Solomon
“The mortal body imprisons the soul, and this vessel of clay weighs down the teeming mind”

I think in this Scripture ‘mortal body’ refers to the state of the body now, with original sin & eventual death, with concupiscence - not the fact of our having bodies. Similarly when St Paul says “who will release me from this body of death” (or “the body of this death”) - contrast is almost certainly with the resurrected body of the blessed which is without death.

John of the Cross (a Doctor of the Church) says that due to Original Sin, the soul is cast into the dark dungeon of the body.

Same here, almost certainly - we did not receive bodies due to original sin. Nor will the resurrected bodies in heaven be prisons or dark.

.

 

[Qoeleth]

It’s doubtful whether that view corresponds to Catholic teaching.

In stark contrast to the way in which Jesus stressed the beauty and joy of life on earth. If Lazarus was better off dead why was he brought back from the tomb? To suffer again?

Did Jesus, the “man of sorrows”, really stress that? No, not in the Gospel. I suggest that is the impression of the “health and wealth” (so-called) “Gospel”, so popular among some people. Not that I am suggesting that is your orientation. Jesus said, “Blessed are those who mourn, but alas for those who laugh.” He said “whoever hates his life in this world will inherit eternal life.”

And, if you read the story of Lazarus carefully, Jesus says “Our friend is sleeping, but I must now go and wake him.” He is reluctant to bring him back to life. In the next chapter, it seems Lazarus is killed again. I assume that is why Jesus was so reluctant to wake his sleeping friend- to wake him to a second death. That is one interpretation, anyway.

I don’t mean to be dogmatic- since the realities we are talking about are only symbolized in language. Throughout much of the history of Christianity, the popular image was of the soul escaping from the prison of the body, after find its way home from this exile in a valley of tears. This is an image which still offers a lot to many people. It captures the idea of liberation, freedom from suffering and ‘ascent’.

Perhaps it is not a complete image, but none of our words about such realities are complete or entirely satisfactory. I think many theologians have been too quick to throw it out.

 

[LegoGE1947]

Did Jesus, the “man of sorrows”, really stress that? No, not in the Gospel. I suggest that is the impression of the “health and wealth” (so-called) “Gospel”, so popular among some people. Not that I am suggesting that is your orientation. Jesus said, “Blessed are those who mourn, but alas for those who laugh.” He said “whoever hates his life in this world will inherit eternal life.”

And, if you read the story of Lazarus carefully, Jesus says “Our friend is sleeping, but I must now go and wake him.” He is reluctant to bring him back to life. In the next chapter, it seems Lazarus is killed again. I assume that is why Jesus was so reluctant to wake his sleeping friend- to wake him to a second death. That is one interpretation, anyway.

I don’t mean to be dogmatic- since the realities we are talking about are only symbolized in language. Throughout much of the history of Christianity, the popular image was of the soul escaping from the prison of the body, after find its way home from this exile in a valley of tears. This is an image which still offers a lot to many people. It captures the idea of liberation, freedom from suffering and ‘ascent’.

Perhaps it is not a complete image, but none of our words about such realities are complete or entirely satisfactory. I think many theologians have been too quick to throw it out.

The world has this saying “Life’s a b****h and then we die!” What about this saying?

 

[Qoeleth]

The world has this saying “Life’s a b****h and then we die!” What about this saying?

That’s is a valid saying for a lot of people, for lot’s of the time. And it is possible to obtain a kind of Stoic courage from it.

Whenever we talk about ‘life’, I suggest, we are inventing a kind of mythology- since any saying about ‘life’ as such (e.g. ‘life is like a box of choclates’, ‘life is a passing shadow’, etc.) has a only a metaphorical relationship to reality (since ‘life’, in fact, is a concept refering not to reality, but rather a fiction. There are many ‘lives’ but there is no ‘life’ about which generalisations can be made).

In the same category, I put the image of the body as a prison. Sometimes it speaks a truth, sometimes not. Our theological discourse needs to be broad enough to accept that BOTH “life is a box of chocolates”, AND that “life is a prison sentence”. Both express authentically the human condition.

 

[GEddie]

That’s is a valid saying for a lot of people, for lot’s of the time. And it is possible to obtain a kind of Stoic courage from it.

Whenever we talk about ‘life’, I suggest, we are inventing a kind of mythology- since any saying about ‘life’ as such (e.g. ‘life is like a box of choclates’, ‘life is a passing shadow’, etc.) has a only a metaphorical relationship to reality (since ‘life’, in fact, is a concept refering not to reality, but rather a fiction. There are many ‘lives’ but there is no ‘life’ about which generalisations can be made).

In the same category, I put the image of the body as a prison. Sometimes it speaks a truth, sometimes not. Our theological discourse needs to be broad enough to accept that BOTH “life is a box of chocolates”, AND that “life is a prison sentence”. Both express authentically the human condition.

It is death not life that is the prison.

The grave is the most secure prison imaginable.

 

[LegoGE1947]

It is death not life that is the prison.

The grave is the most secure prison imaginable.

Actually I couldn’t take either "life is a prison’OR “life is a box of chocolates”.I can’t take being locked up and I can’t eat chocolate because it makes me violently ill.