Is the Pope infallible

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Suppose, as in Unam Sanctam, the Pope deifnes something that is disregarding previous teaching, for instance, invincible ignorance.

Would that teaching be only true in regards to what has not been previously defined?

Is is possible the definieion of Papal infallibilty is improperly worded, not giving proper recognition to previous magisterial teachings?

Or am I wrong and the declaraion of infallibility includes somehow this incorporation of all previous teachings?

peace
steve
 
It seems a reasonable assertion that one infallible statement cannot contradict another infallible statement, so if you perceive that happening, either one of the statements is not infallible, or there is some way to reconcile them that you haven’t considered yet.
 
thenobes said:
Suppose, as in Unam Sanctam, the Pope deifnes something that is disregarding previous teaching, for instance, invincible ignorance.

Would that teaching be only true in regards to what has not been previously defined?

Is is possible the definieion of Papal infallibilty is improperly worded, not giving proper recognition to previous magisterial teachings?

Or am I wrong and the declaraion of infallibility includes somehow this incorporation of all previous teachings?

peace
steve
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That is a very thought provoking question.So, I googled it.This is what I came up with.It’s easier for me to just copy and paste,…

geocities.com/pharsea/DefinitionOfDoctrine.html

All acts of the Extraordinary Magisterium (whether of the Pope or Synod) are protected from error.​

Such acts are not guaranteed by Holy Spirit to be :​

Code: 
* easy to understand;
* easy to interpret; or even
* at all helpful!
I’m pretty sure that The Pope has to do a lot of discussing with his cabinet of cardinals,advisers and all the other folks that ‘have his back’,so to speak. I’m also pretty sure that they won’t allow him to say anything that is going to let the Church look stupid to the world.
 
That_one_guy said:
That is a very thought provoking question.So, I googled it.This is what I came up with.It’s easier for me to just copy and paste,…

geocities.com/pharsea/DefinitionOfDoctrine.html

All acts of the Extraordinary Magisterium (whether of the Pope or Synod) are protected from error.​

Such acts are not guaranteed by Holy Spirit to be :​

Code: 
* easy to understand;
* easy to interpret; or even
* at all helpful!
I’m pretty sure that The Pope has to do a lot of discussing with his cabinet of cardinals,advisers and all the other folks that ‘have his back’,so to speak. I’m also pretty sure that they won’t allow him to say anything that is going to let the Church look stupid to the world.
Click to expand...
Certainly, the Councils are an integral part of process and illuminating doctrines and dogmas. Councils also convene to discuss rising issues that become significant for the faithful. But I am reminded that St Peter ALONE was given The Keys of Heaven and therefore need NO advisers, per se. “He” (and Pope) may listen and reflect of matters being discussed within Councils of The Church, but the FINAL decisions, he bears alone!

The Popes has many advisers I’m sure for there is much to learn and understand for any one human. I am also CERTAIN that many bishops advise him against seeming stupid or ignorant before PUBLIC opinion. But thus far throughtout the history of The Church, NO POPE has made any ifallible announcement WEIGHTED by popularity!

The most recent example is JP2 against women priests, although he himself was not the ‘decider’ of the issue, since he merely cited the records of The Church.

Two ‘infallible’ statements?! The position cannot exist if contradictory. Therefore, further explanation may be necessary or the FULL accounts must be known, before matters become clear.

:cool:
 
According to the late great Cardinal Newman the Pope only speaks with infallibility ex-cathedra, which has happened only once in recent times, in 1950 when Pius XII in Munificentissimus Deus- proclaimed the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Conciliar and other teachings ie, Humanae Vitae etal are NOT ex-cathedra and therefore subject to human error.
 
Wasn’t JPII’s addition of the Luminous Mysteries to the Rosary ex cathedra?
 
thistle said:
The Rosary, while recommended, is not mandatory. No Catholic is obliged to pray the Rosary.
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Well, JPII adding the mysteries to the Rosary wouldn’t be an infallible statement directing everyone to pray the Rosary, would it? It would be an infallible statement that those mysteries belonged in the Rosary. So, when he did that, was that ex cathedra or not?
 
That_one_guy said:
That is a very thought provoking question.So, I googled it.This is what I came up with.It’s easier for me to just copy and paste,…

geocities.com/pharsea/DefinitionOfDoctrine.html

All acts of the Extraordinary Magisterium (whether of the Pope or Synod) are protected from error.​

Such acts are not guaranteed by Holy Spirit to be :​

  • easy to understand;
  • easy to interpret; or even
  • at all helpful!
I’m pretty sure that The Pope has to do a lot of discussing with his cabinet of cardinals,advisers and all the other folks that ‘have his back’,so to speak. I’m also pretty sure that they won’t allow him to say anything that is going to let the Church look stupid to the world.
Click to expand...
The Pope does not answer to anyone, except Christ. He does not have to discuss anything with anyone or get approval from anyone.
 
Peccavi said:
According to the late great Cardinal Newman the Pope only speaks with infallibility ex-cathedra, which has happened only once in recent times, in 1950 when Pius XII in Munificentissimus Deus- proclaimed the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Conciliar and other teachings ie, Humanae Vitae etal are NOT ex-cathedra and therefore subject to human error.
Click to expand...
Twice, The Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.

Humanae Vitae and other papal and Conciliar documents contain infallible teaching by the Ordinary Magisterium.
 
bookgirl32 said:
Well, JPII adding the mysteries to the Rosary wouldn’t be an infallible statement directing everyone to pray the Rosary, would it? It would be an infallible statement that those mysteries belonged in the Rosary. So, when he did that, was that ex cathedra or not?
Click to expand...
NO.
 
Dear brother Deconi
Deconi said:
Certainly, the Councils are an integral part of process and illuminating doctrines and dogmas. Councils also convene to discuss rising issues that become significant for the faithful. But I am reminded that St Peter ALONE was given The Keys of Heaven and therefore need NO advisers, per se. “He” (and Pope) may listen and reflect of matters being discussed within Councils of The Church, but the FINAL decisions, he bears alone!
Click to expand...
Where do you get the idea that the Pope bears the final decision ALONE in an Ecumenical Council (if you mean to include Ecumenical Councils in the your use of the term “Councils”)

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Br.Rich_SFO said:
The Pope does not answer to anyone, except Christ. He does not have to discuss anything with anyone or get approval from anyone.
Click to expand...
That’s a scary thought. Does this mean the Pope has the authority to tell the world that Christ is not God?

Blessings,
Marduk
 
mardukm said:
Dear brother Deconi

Where do you get the idea that the Pope bears the final decision ALONE in an Ecumenical Council (if you mean to include Ecumenical Councils in the your use of the term “Councils”)

Blessings,
Marduk
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It’s not really a bone of contention, but the fact is a Pope can actually DECIDE AWAY from a council’s conclusions!..or more acurately, DECIDE the conclusion for the council to take out of all the varying views that will exist in them!

If you think all the bishops present in ANY council, SINGULARLY agree on an issue, then you credit Catholics with way too much. IT CAN HAPPEN, of course, but highly unlikely! We are all free to think and laud opinions from our various vantages from our individual parts of the globe. Bishops are no less.

Even the First Council had ‘heated arguments’ for circumcision is no small issue! Yet, the Apostles were PRESENT! And they and the elders still could not DECIDE IN UNISON which view is the path to take. Sciptures may not have dwelt on the subject at length, but the fact that a Divine Decree was about to be illuminated FULLY to accept no circumcision necessary any longer is one fine example!

Councils, and all their decisions and conclusions, for us, mean squat WITHOUT Papal approval; that is, DECIDING WHAT to accept.

:cool:
 
Br.Rich_SFO said:
The Pope does not answer to anyone, except Christ. He does not have to discuss anything with anyone or get approval from anyone.
Click to expand...
Can you give some official documentary evidence for this statement of yours?

As far as I know, the closest thing is the teaching that there is no recourse from a judgment of the Roman Pontiff. But this clearly refers to matters brought to him on appeal, or, IOW, matters that he is called upon to judge. I really don’t believe the Catholic Church teaches that “The Pope does not answer to anyone, except Christ.”

Also, can you give an EXAMPLE in the history of the Church wherein the Pope did not discuss anything with his brother bishops before making a judgment? It seems to me that the truth of your statement depends on real historical evidence to back up your statement (aside from the documentary evidence I asked for). Otherwise, the Popes themselves would not seem to agree with your statement.

Sure, consent of his brother bishops is not necessary for an ex cathedra decree, but is not consent of his brother bishops necessary for the unity of the Church? Show me a Church document that would answer my question in the negative. And while you’re at it, also show us an instance in the history of the Church that would answer my question in the negative.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Deconi said:
It’s not really a bone of contention, but the fact is a Pope can actually DECIDE AWAY from a council’s conclusions!..or more acurately, DECIDE the conclusion for the council to take out of all the varying views that will exist in them!

If you think all the bishops present in ANY council, SINGULARLY agree on an issue, then you credit Catholics with way too much. IT CAN HAPPEN, of course, but highly unlikely! We are all free to think and laud opinions from our various vantages from our individual parts of the globe. Bishops are no less.

Even the First Council had ‘heated arguments’ for circumcision is no small issue! Yet, the Apostles were PRESENT! And they and the elders still could not DECIDE IN UNISON which view is the path to take. Sciptures may not have dwelt on the subject at length, but the fact that a Divine Decree was about to be illuminated FULLY to accept no circumcision necessary any longer is one fine example!

Councils, and all their decisions and conclusions, for us, mean squat WITHOUT Papal approval; that is, DECIDING WHAT to accept.

:cool:
Click to expand...
Well, it might not seem obvious to you as a Latin Catholic, but the idea that an Ecumenical Council depends completely on the Pope is indeed a bone of contention, not only with the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, but also with Eastern and Oriental CATHOLICS (I’m an Oriental Catholic - Coptic, to be more specific).

I haven’t read any magisterial documentary evidence that would validate your claim that within an Ecumenical Council, ONLY the Pope’s decision is important.

According to our Canons AND Vatican 2, an Ecumenical Council AS A BODY enjoys the gift of infallibility, not merely and only its head bishop (the Pope). Please show me a magisterial document that would challenge what I just wrote.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Peccavi said:
According to the late great Cardinal Newman the Pope only speaks with infallibility ex-cathedra, which has happened only once in recent times, in 1950 when Pius XII in Munificentissimus Deus- proclaimed the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Conciliar and other teachings ie, Humanae Vitae etal are NOT ex-cathedra and therefore subject to human error.
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choirmember:
explain this…
 
Unam Sanctam does not disregard the teaching on invincible ignorance. Any individual teaching of the Church, whether taught under papal infallibility or not, must be interpreted in the light of the entire Faith. It is a type of fundamentalism to see each magisterial statement as standing on its own, apart from the other teachings (or in conflict with the other teachings) and as if not subject to proper interpretation.

A Pope can certainly teach, infallibly or non-infallibly, by his sole authority as the chief priest and first teacher of the universal Church. But it is contrary to the Catholic Faith to say that the teachings of an Ecumenical Council are nothing other than the teachings of the Pope. The Pope is the successor of the Apostle Peter, but the Bishops are the successors of the other Apostles. Christ did not appoint one Apostle, but 12, and He called them all Apostles.

Also, this point is clear from the history of the Church, when sometimes the Council was called by an emperor, not called by the Pope, and when sometimes the Pope did not attend the Council, and did not participate in the writing of the documents, but merely approved the documents after the Council was completed.

As for the claim that papal infallibility has only been used twice: Joseph Ratzinger (as a private theologian some years ago) attempted a list of infallible papal statements which certainly had more than two items on it. (Does anyone know where I could find a copy of that list?)

In my opinion, the teaching of Humanae Vitae falls under the infallibility of the Universal Magisterium, but not papal infallibility. The infallibility of the UM depends upon the teaching of the body of Bishops AND the Pope, not the Pope alone (like an Ecumenical Council).
 
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