is the pope teaching work for the dead

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paul_barlow

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The poor souls in Purgatory cannot pray
for themselves so please remember to
include them in your
personal prayers.

Viva Pope Benedict XVI

if the dead are saved by grace alone there would be no purgatory. so works are needed. if they did not do them here. should we then not do them for those in purgatory.
 
paul barlow:
The poor souls in Purgatory cannot pray
for themselves so please remember to
include them in your
personal prayers.

Viva Pope Benedict XVI

if the dead are saved by grace alone there would be no purgatory. so works are needed. if they did not do them here. should we then not do them for those in purgatory.
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I’m not sure I follow what you’re saying. Catholics agree that people are not saved by grace (read faith) alone. We agree that we will be judged by our works. However, purgatory is a place of cleansing for those who are on their way to Heaven. They are already “saved”, they’ve already been judged, and are being cleansed in preparation for entering Heaven.
 
Those in purgatory are already saved. They are on a path bound for heaven.

Though they are heaven-bound, they are not “clean” enough to enter beatific vision quite yet. They have yet to repay the temporal effects of their sins.

Christ gave them an open way to heaven, but on the way- they developed unholy attachments to sin or to earthbound things. These are what need to be burned away.

Our prayers and sacrifices on earth help to elliviate these temporal punishments they have to endure- and we do this because as a member of the communion of saints- we endure for one another. We are a family under God, and just as I would never abandon another of my family in need- I do not spiritually abandon my brothers and sisters in Christ, who are in purgatory.

newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
 
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tkdnick:
Catholics agree that people are not saved by grace (read faith) alone. We agree that we will be judged by our works.
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Just wanted to point out that you are right when you say we are not saved by faith alone. We are however saved by grace alone. It’s when we choose to cooperate with grace that we have faith and do good works. If we choose to ignore grace and just have faith, just do good works, or do neither, we will go to Hell.

As has been pointed out, people in Purgatory have already been saved, but they are being made pure for Heaven. Our prayers can help them in that process.
 
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Genesis315:
Just wanted to point out that you are right when you say we are not saved by faith alone. We are however saved by grace alone.
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That’s why I wanted to make that distinction about faith. I figure that’s probably what Paul was talking about.
 
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Genesis315:
Just wanted to point out that you are right when you say we are not saved by faith alone. We are however saved by grace alone. It’s when we choose to cooperate with grace that we have faith and do good works. If we choose to ignore grace and just have faith, just do good works, or do neither, we will go to Hell.

As has been pointed out, people in Purgatory have already been saved, but they are being made pure for Heaven. Our prayers can help them in that process.
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I was going to point that out as well.

I think people tend to think salvation and judgement are the same thing.

We are judged by our works.

We are saved by God’s grace.
 
so who teaches that they are saved by grace alone. is it the protestants
 
**No Paul, not all Mainstream TRADITIONAL Protestants profess Eternal Security, the ones that do are your new age sect’s, Most if not all Baptist, Born Again, extremist Protestant fundie sects.

Sara**
 
sara888 said:
No Paul, not all Mainstream TRADITIONAL Protestants profess Eternal Security, the ones that do are your new age sect’s, Most if not all Baptist, Born Again, extremist Protestant fundie sects.

Sara
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What? New Age Sects? I have found that the majority of Protestants believe in some form of being saved by faith alone.
 
paul barlow:
so who teaches that they are saved by grace alone. is it the protestants
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Here is what I believe to be the Catholic stance on being “saved”:

We are saved by grace through faith working in love. Yes, it is completely true that we are saved by God’s grace. Faith and works both play a part in our salvation. It is important to note that it is by God’s grace that we receive/have faith and are able to do good works.
 
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tkdnick:
Here is what I believe to be the Catholic stance on being “saved”:

We are saved by grace through faith working in love. Yes, it is completely true that we are saved by God’s grace. Faith and works both play a part in our salvation. It is important to note that it is by God’s grace that we receive/have faith and are able to do good works.
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I know the Catholics get this part, but I feel the need to expand on it slightly for the sake of those asking questions.

Works are still required because they are an outward manifestation of faith and grace. The theory is that if someone loves God, not only are they capable of good works, but they can not help but perform good works. To have received faith and grace from God and not allow that to manifest in good works is to betray the grace that God has given you – essentially allowing you to lose that faith and grace by injuring your spirit and distancing yourself from God.

God gives us the gift of grace, but there is still a requirement on our parts to make the best use of that grace (which is where free will comes in and is also how people who have been saved can still fall from grace if they allow themselves to).
 
**Tknick saidWhat? New Age Sects? I have found that the majority of Protestants believe in some form of being saved by faith alone.

Some Traditional Protestants for example the Lutherans and Episcopaliens do believe in Justification/Salvation doctrine. meaning they teach and profess one can LOSE their Salvation with God.

OSAS , Eternal Security Belivers profess nothing can intervene with their Salvation, they feel they should not sin, however if they do this still does not keep them from guranteed entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven. I dont want to turn this debate into Assured Salvation debate, but the Eternal Security Believers do profess such unbiblical doctrine.

When you think about it, every thread ends up refuting Eternal Security, no matter what the topic.**

SARA
 
paul barlow:
at last something we both agree on.
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There is still a major difference between Catholic and LDS theology. A Catholic sinner can be saved on his deathbed, a LDS sinner cannot. Repentance has to be present in both cases but in the LDS case the repentance must be proven. A Catholic must be truly be sorrow and intend to sin no more, a LDS must never commit the sin again. A common statement in my house growing up was, “if you’re truly sorry, you’ll never do it again”.
 
**Todd said:
There is still a major difference between Catholic and LDS theology. A Catholic sinner can be saved on his deathbed, a LDS sinner cannot.

Sara says:
Your are correct about the Catholic doctrine of Extreme Unction or Absolution, however how is it the LDS sinner cannot be saved at his last moments, I suppose you are a member who does not profess the Eternal Security doctrine as most Mormons do.

Your statement about repentance,
Catholics claim the same teachings as you do if one is truly sorry he does not repeat the same offense against God.

This is called intentional sin, which is a Mortal Sin.! Catholics try to refrain from mortal sin and abide in true repentance or sorrow for ones sins.**

Sara
 
sara888 said:
**Todd said:
There is still a major difference between Catholic and LDS theology. A Catholic sinner can be saved on his deathbed, a LDS sinner cannot.

Sara says:
Your are correct about the Catholic doctrine of Extreme Unction or Absolution, however how is it the LDS sinner cannot be saved at his last moments, I suppose you are a member who does not profess the Eternal Security doctrine as most Mormons do.

Your statement about repentance,
Catholics claim the same teachings as you do if one is truly sorry he does not repeat the same offense against God.

This is called intentional sin, which is a Mortal Sin.! Catholics try to refrain from mortal sin and abide in true repentance or sorrow for ones sins.**

Sara
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First of all I’m a Catholic. Secondly, when I go to confession, I am truly sorry and I do not INTEND to sin again, but many times(out of habit) I do sin again. Are you saying I wasn’t forgiven? As far as “eternal security” doctrine, I’ve never heard of that. When I say “saved” for a LDS I mean they will go to the Celestial Kingdom. And, there is no deathbed repentance for LDS. If they weren’t already going down that road they’re out of luck.
 
** Todd said:First of all I’m a Catholic. Secondly, when I go to confession, I am truly sorry and I do not INTEND to sin again, but many times(out of habit) I do sin again. Are you saying I wasn’t forgiven? As far as “eternal security” doctrine, I’ve never heard of that. When I say “saved” for a LDS I mean they will go to the Celestial Kingdom. And, there is no deathbed repentance for LDS. If they weren’t already going down that road they’re out of luck.

Sara says:
No I am not saying you were not forgiven, I never even suggested such claims. What I stated was when we go to confession or reconciliation we are suppose to be TRULY sorry for our sins and not offend God by repeating the same offense. That is true repentance, however we all do not honor or abide in this as Catholics.

Well yes I agree the LDS believe in Eternal Security, as you claim when they die, they profess and believe they were selected or elected to gain entrance into Heaven, Catholic do not believe in Assured Salvation or simply put Eternal Security.

Sara**
 
**Eternal Security , Assured Salvation, Once Saved, Always Saved., all define the person who excepts Jesus as his personal saviour and has Faith is guranteed Heaven when they die. Regardless of any Past, Present or Future sin’s. The discussions and debates with them become circular and twisted.

They claim , out of Faith and Love they produce Fruit or works, which are Gods Commandments, however they also claim if they dont follow these Commandments, they still gain immediate entrance into heaven since they feel commandment keeping or works have nothing to do with Faith and Salvation.

Sara**
 
I am a LDS, this is what I believe (and taught about 18 months ago to a class of adults). Were the CoJCoLDS to vanish, I would be a Catholic and this is what I would still believe. I think this is the best read of the Bible and the LDS scriptures.

We are saved by Grace alone, made efficacious in our lives through faith and works. It is not that our faith or our works EARN grace, because then it would either not be grace or would only partially be grace. Our faith and works bring God’s grace upon us.

First we have faith. Faith used here is intended to mean a profound inner belief and confidence that in God as our Savior as our Father as the way, truth, and light. Faith is of course a choice, but it is a choice born of some stimulus. All mankind are afforded sufficient stimulus to choose God in a way that begins their walk. For some this stimulus is the light of Christ that is poured out upon all men. For some this stimulus is parental teachings and examples. For some this stimulus is contact with missionaries. God who knows us perfectly provides the perfect stimulus so that we may choose Faith in Him.

Next comes the choice to participate with God in works. This choice is again a free will decision made by truly free beings. The devil has Faith in God in that he believes. The devil may even believe that God offers salvation, but the devil chooses his own individual and thus rebellious path. We on the other hand ask God to come into our lives by choosing His work. After we choose His work He performs it through us. The energies for good work come from God, only the choice to let God work through us come from us.

As God works through us we are transformed. His uniting with us lifts us up towards Him. This PROCESS is the process that Sanctifies/Justifies the fallen man. God’s Grace is free, but we must pick it up. We pick it up through faith and participating in His works.

The final result as clearly expressed by Elder Oaks is one of BECOMING. We BECOME one who is sanctified/justified through our free choice to accept God’s free grace. The proximate concerns of the world occasionally make this choice appear to be work, but it is actually just a CHOICE.

Now for a little more from the LDS side that I might not be able to take with me as a Catholic.

After death based on who we have BECOME, we again CHOOSE. This will be a perfectly informed choice. Those who BECOME one who desires Celestial Glory will CHOOSE it. Others will choose other things. Our time after death will involve some stretching and growing that may be difficult for us, but mostly it will involve learning. When this learning is complete we will then make an informed choice, but this will based upon who we BECAME in our second estate. Much of this is also derived from Elder Oaks’ talk The Challenge to Become.

cont…
 
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