is the pope teaching work for the dead

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Long ago I concluded that the best Protestant understanding of Sanctification and Justification was so profoundly similar to the Catholic/LDS understanding that for the true Christian it made no difference at all what you believed.

Protestants introduced a new idea into the history of Christianity during the reformation. This wholesale creation was the idea that Justification and Sanctification were separated. You are Justified (Saved, made clean for heaven) through Faith Alone. Then you are Sanctified (moved toward becoming like Christ) through post justification works. If it is important I have a pretty well respected Protestant (I think) scholar who says this is the case, and I have never been shown to be in error when I have claimed this. Now again if the Protestant sola fide person walks the path of a Christian, it really makes no difference where they claim Justification and Sanctification begin and end.

There are dangers associated with each of these views.

Catholics and LDS may find themselves trying to earn their salvation through good works. This is dangerous in two ways. First, if they think they have, then this is pride and is quite a horrible foundation upon which to try to build a Christian life. And second, if they realize they cannot and do not turn fully to Christ in their failure; they might walk around heavily burdened and wander into dark paths. However, I believe that we ALL MUST FAIL. Some of use will not be fortunate to have profound suffering in our lives so we must experience our inability to DO IT without Christ and then our VICTORY when Christ DOES IT through us. I believe this is one of the most important born again experiences available to Christians. I actually think it is essential to our full conversion.

The more pernicious and dangerous danger I believe is associated with the sola fide ERROR. This has been called Easy Believism. The Christian is told that faith=belief and to be saved all they need is faith. This person may have many feel good experiences, but I worry that they will never FAIL without Christ.

This is why I believe if one error is to be chosen over the other, it is better to overemphasize the works associated with being Christian then to neglect this and only speak of the freeness of God’s gift of Grace. If works are over emphasized honest people will ultimately fail and if they have been walking with Christ, they will choose Him and He will make the weak things strong. If works are totally shunned easy-believers will wander through life with good feelings, but never experience what it is like to do the impossible through a pouring out of Christ’s love upon them.

Charity, TOm
 
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Tmaque:
There is still a major difference between Catholic and LDS theology. A Catholic sinner can be saved on his deathbed, a LDS sinner cannot. Repentance has to be present in both cases but in the LDS case the repentance must be proven. A Catholic must be truly be sorrow and intend to sin no more, a LDS must never commit the sin again. A common statement in my house growing up was, “if you’re truly sorry, you’ll never do it again”.
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I do not agree that there is no such thing as a death bed transition for a LDS.
  • The ordinances associated with the Celestial Kingdom will all be preformed by proxy.
  • Nobody can know what path any particular person is on moments before they die so it is impossible to judge whether they are one who would desire to be in the Celestial Kingdom or not.
  • I do not understand what in Catholic theology allows for a profound change on the deathbed and what in LDS theology precludes it. I see nothing that says that real change is impossible at any time in any way in either Catholic or LDS theology.
  • In fact those who die in mortal sin without the sacrament of absolution go to hell regardless of what death bed changes they made unless it involved a priest. I could be wrong, but I know this was at one point solid Catholic theology and I do not think it has changed. The mafia used to take advantage of this by killing people involved in mortal sin such that they would go to hell.
I do believe that it is possible to be truly sorry and fall again in the future, but the person on their deathbed is pretty much guaranteed of not performing some sin again.

What is it in LDS theology that communicates to you that profound changes are not possible on the death bed?

Charity, TOm
 
Sara,

**
sara888
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Your statement about repentance,
**Catholics claim the same teachings as you do if one is truly sorry he does not repeat the same offense against God. **

**
**
Sara says:
No I am not saying you were not forgiven, I never even suggested such claims. What I stated was when we go to confession or reconciliation we are suppose to be TRULY sorry for our sins and not offend God by repeating the same offense. That is true repentance, however we all do not honor or abide in this as Catholics.
**
Forgive me for butting in to the discussion, I don’t want to lead the topic astray. I just wanted to state the way I understand Catholic teaching on Reconciliation. If a Catholic IS NOT truly sorry for his/her sins at confession then the Sacrament is void even though the Priest absolved them. That is part of the Sacrament, being truly sorry for their sins.

Bless you,

Joe
 
**I agree Joe, where have I stated differently.?

That was my point, we must be truly sorry for our sins, and if one is truly sorry he should not repeat the same offense against God.

Sara**
 
**Tkdnick said:

I don’t know what OSAS means…

Sara says:
You dont want to know, however it means a Christian is guranteed Heaven because he Believes in Christ and his sins were all paid for which include his past sins, present and future sins. Faith without works, however they distort and twist their theology to claim Faith produces works, however works have nothing to do with ones salvation. try to figure that analogy out.!
You cannot seperate Faith and Gods moral Laws,since Faith means to abide in Gods Laws.

Do you understand it, if you dont,no need to really know about this doctrine as it is misleading ,distorting and false.

Sara**
 
sara888 said:
I agree Joe, where have I stated differently.?

That was my point, we must be truly sorry for our sins, and if one is truly sorry he should not repeat the same offense against God.

Sara
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Well, I probably mis-understood you. I thought you MIGHT have been saying, “because they committed the same sin again … they REALLY was not truly repentant.”(?)

I know you didn’t state it exactly that way, but that’s the way I interpreted you.

And, of course, we should not commit the same offense against God, but that doesn’t mean we were not truly repentant to begin with when confessing previously.

I just wanted clarification. Thank you Sara.

God bless,

Joe
 
OSAS = once saved always saved. This belief is taught in some protestant churches. (NOT by LDS or Catholic)

Both LDS and Catholics teach faith without works is dead. Catholics tend more towards the belief that the good works are an offering made in gratitude to the Lord for the grace he gives us. LDS (in my experience) tend more towards the thought that the works prepares the individual to benefit from the grace. (faith precedes the miracle)
In it’s most basic terms Catholic = grace then works; LDS = works then grace.

There is one notable exception. (for LDS)

*D&C 132:

26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the aHoly• Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they bcommit• no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be cdelivered• unto the buffetings of dSatan unto the day of eredemption, saith the Lord God.
*

Thus we see that those LDS who have received the sealing ordinance in the Temple have an assurance that unless they commit murder then they still get their exaltation. There is also a further extension of this principle where you have your “calling and election made sure”. This involves an ordinance called “the second anointing” but is VERY hard to find anything on.
 
TOmNossor
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In fact those who die in mortal sin without the sacrament of absolution go to hell regardless of what death bed changes they made unless it involved a priest. I could be wrong, but I know this was at one point solid Catholic theology and I do not think it has changed. The mafia used to take advantage of this by killing people involved in mortal sin such that they would go to hell.

Hi Tom,

If the person on the death bed even desires to confess to a priest and does not formally confess, I think Catholic teaching says, that person is still saved.

I don’t think they would necessarily HAVE to confess to a Priest. But, I think the desire too, at least, is still necessary.

I think others in the Form can explain it better.

God bless,

Joe
 
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TOmNossor:
I do not agree that there is no such thing as a death bed transition for a LDS.
  • The ordinances associated with the Celestial Kingdom will all be preformed by proxy.
  • Nobody can know what path any particular person is on moments before they die so it is impossible to judge whether they are one who would desire to be in the Celestial Kingdom or not.
  • I do not understand what in Catholic theology allows for a profound change on the deathbed and what in LDS theology precludes it. I see nothing that says that real change is impossible at any time in any way in either Catholic or LDS theology.
  • In fact those who die in mortal sin without the sacrament of absolution go to hell regardless of what death bed changes they made unless it involved a priest. I could be wrong, but I know this was at one point solid Catholic theology and I do not think it has changed. The mafia used to take advantage of this by killing people involved in mortal sin such that they would go to hell.
I do believe that it is possible to be truly sorry and fall again in the future, but the person on their deathbed is pretty much guaranteed of not performing some sin again.

What is it in LDS theology that communicates to you that profound changes are not possible on the death bed?

Charity, TOm
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Tom,
I was taught this growing up. Upon reading your question I called my Mom and asked her if there was any scriptural basis for this belief. She referred me to Alma 34:34,35.

*34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.*

I don’t know if this passage would mean the same thing to you as it does to her. It seems to me it could read either way. In any case, I was taught deathbed repentance was meaningless, that’s why I believed it to be LDS doctrine.

Daniel Peterson with Farms has this comment regarding the passage on the FARMS website:

“Alma 34 simply teaches that deathbed repentance is a snare and a delusion, that those who have knowingly chosen evil will enter the next life without having undergone any magical transformation and will be the same evilly inclined”

This shows that my Mother’s view is, at least, not totally contrary to the norm.
 
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sara888:
No I am not saying you were not forgiven, I never even suggested such claims. What I stated was when we go to confession or reconciliation we are suppose to be TRULY sorry for our sins and not offend God by repeating the same offense. That is true repentance, however we all do not honor or abide in this as Catholics.
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It seems to me that what you are saying here is that if a person is truly sorry they will not commit the sin again. From personal experience, I just don’t buy that argument. I’ve committed sin, been in the depths of regret and despair over it, been truly sorry, and have found myself at some future date having sinned again.

I’m truly sorry when I lash out in anger at another person and cause them emotional pain. But, I have a bad temper, and I have a habit of losing that temper. I’m getting better but it’s taking a long, long time. Knowing that every time I go to confession I am forgiven gives me strength to keep trying no matter how long it takes. If I didn’t believe that forgiveness was there each time I committed the same sin I would have stopped trying long ago.
 
**Tmaque said:It seems to me that what you are saying here is that if a person is truly sorry they will not commit the sin again. From personal experience, I just don’t buy that argument. I’ve committed sin, been in the depths of regret and despair over it, been truly sorry, and have found myself at some future date having sinned again.

So have I , however you and I were not then truly sorry for repeating the same sin or offense against God. we took self over God.

The whole idea is to go and sin no more, to live a rightous and sinless life. Is it not.?

Sara**
 
sara888 said:
**Eternal Security , Assured Salvation, Once Saved, Always Saved., all define the person who excepts Jesus as his personal saviour and has Faith is guranteed Heaven when they die. Regardless of any Past, Present or Future sin’s. The discussions and debates with them become circular and twisted.

They claim , out of Faith and Love they produce Fruit or works, which are Gods Commandments, however they also claim if they dont follow these Commandments, they still gain immediate entrance into heaven since they feel commandment keeping or works have nothing to do with Faith and Salvation.

Sara**
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i don’t know what you know about our church but we don’t teach what you are saying. we are indeed saved by grace as its thruogh the saviour that we recieve a remission of our sins. we believe just by say we believe is not enough we must be active in our faith by doing good works ect. so we believe in SALVATION= GRACE+WORKS. we believe you need to be truly repentant. claiming sorrow on your death bed after living an evil life will not save you.
 
sara888 said:
**Tmaque said:It seems to me that what you are saying here is that if a person is truly sorry they will not commit the sin again. From personal experience, I just don’t buy that argument. I’ve committed sin, been in the depths of regret and despair over it, been truly sorry, and have found myself at some future date having sinned again.

So have I , however you and I were not then truly sorry for repeating the same sin or offense against God. we took self over God.

The whole idea is to go and sin no more, to live a rightous and sinless life. Is it not.?

Sara**
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Yes, that is the ideal. But we are not perfect, we have bad habits, and change happens gradually. Thinking that the value of my sorrow for sin hinges upon whether I sin again in the future is particularly unhelpful to me. I can find nowhere in scripture where it says that we were not forgiven the first time if we sin again.

Let’s say you are the type of person that likes to gossip, and at some point you realize that it’s wrong and confess the sin. If you can stop gossiping instantly then you are a far better person than I. I know of no one that can instantly give up a sin they’ve been indulging in for a long time.
 
“claiming sorrow on your death bed after living an evil life will not save you”… By Paul Barlow.

One who truly repents while on his or her deathbed is a fantastic thing. All the Saints and angels in heaven rejoice that one has been saved so close to losing it all. They have found their way home to the merciful and loving Father. Everything they did prior is of no concern, let the devil blow where he may. A child of God has been saved, halleluiah.

“The kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out at dawn to hire laborers for his vineyard. After agreeing with them for the usual daily wage, he sent them into his vineyard. Going out about nine o’clock, he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, and he said to them, ‘You too go into my vineyard, and I will give you what is just.’ So they went off. And he went out again around noon, and around three o’clock, and did likewise. Going out about five o’clock, he found others standing around, and said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’ They answered, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You too go into my vineyard.’ When it was evening the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Summon the laborers and give them their pay, beginning with the last and ending with the first.’ When those who had started about five o’clock came, each received the usual daily wage. So when the first came, they thought that they would receive more, but each of them also got the usual wage. And on receiving it they grumbled against the landowner, saying, ‘These last ones worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us, who bore the day’s burden and the heat.’ He said to one of them in reply, ‘My friend, I am not cheating you. Did you not agree with me for the usual daily wage? Take what is yours and go. What if I wish to give this last one the same as you? Or am I not free to do as I wish with my own money? Are you envious because I am generous?’ Thus, the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

Jesus said to the thief on the cross who repented "Today you will be with mein paradise" This thief was neither baptized nor partook of the Lords supper he believed and was promised to be with Jesus. (Luke 23:43).

All he did was believe in Jesus and he had a change of heart. This is hard to accept for those who add requirements to be saved or through their good works earn their way to heaven.

Again, the Cross of Christ is the only way. He gets all the credit due Him.

They are envious because God is generous?’ Where does this kind of thought come from? As Catholic Christians it is by setting ourselves in the lowest place we will only have others to look up to, to see even the so called worst as made in the image of God, keeping ourselves humble. Paul does your Church study these who gave much for Christ?
catholic.org/saints/stindex.php

It was these that knew of these things, they are our examples in Christ.

God Bless
 
catholic-rcia said:
“claiming sorrow on your death bed after living an evil life will not save you”… By Paul Barlow.

One who truly repents while on his or her deathbed is a fantastic thing. All the Saints and angels in heaven rejoice that one has been saved so close to losing it all. They have found their way home to the merciful and loving Father. Everything they did prior is of no concern, let the devil blow where he may. A child of God has been saved, halleluiah.

“The kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out at dawn to hire laborers for his vineyard. After agreeing with them for the usual daily wage, he sent them into his vineyard. Going out about nine o’clock, he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, and he said to them, ‘You too go into my vineyard, and I will give you what is just.’ So they went off. And he went out again around noon, and around three o’clock, and did likewise. Going out about five o’clock, he found others standing around, and said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’ They answered, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You too go into my vineyard.’ When it was evening the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Summon the laborers and give them their pay, beginning with the last and ending with the first.’ When those who had started about five o’clock came, each received the usual daily wage. So when the first came, they thought that they would receive more, but each of them also got the usual wage. And on receiving it they grumbled against the landowner, saying, ‘These last ones worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us, who bore the day’s burden and the heat.’ He said to one of them in reply, ‘My friend, I am not cheating you. Did you not agree with me for the usual daily wage? Take what is yours and go. What if I wish to give this last one the same as you? Or am I not free to do as I wish with my own money? Are you envious because I am generous?’ Thus, the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

Jesus said to the thief on the cross who repented "Today you will be with mein paradise" This thief was neither baptized nor partook of the Lords supper he believed and was promised to be with Jesus. (Luke 23:43).

All he did was believe in Jesus and he had a change of heart. This is hard to accept for those who add requirements to be saved or through their good works earn their way to heaven.

Again, the Cross of Christ is the only way. He gets all the credit due Him.

They are envious because God is generous?’ Where does this kind of thought come from? As Catholic Christians it is by setting ourselves in the lowest place we will only have others to look up to, to see even the so called worst as made in the image of God, keeping ourselves humble. Paul does your Church study these who gave much for Christ?
catholic.org/saints/stindex.php

It was these that knew of these things, they are our examples in Christ.

God Bless
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how sincre would they be to wait untill there death. if a person truly repented not knowing they were dying that would be fine i am sure. but is it a surprise that when people who have not followed the lords teachings suddernly find god a the last moment. you must accept this is not what the saviour taught us.
 
paul barlow:
how sincre would they be to wait untill there death. if a person truly repented not knowing they were dying that would be fine i am sure. but is it a surprise that when people who have not followed the lords teachings suddernly find god a the last moment. you must accept this is not what the saviour taught us.
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We come to God for various reasons. Most of the people who aren’t inclined to seek God at all, become inclined to do so when faced with their own mortality. I thinking facing death would make one incredibly sincere. No, they haven’t earned by their actions the right to be saved, and it’s not fair. And, really none of us have. We can’t sin against an infinite good and make up for it on our own. So, are we envious because God is generous? I think catholic-rcia is right on here.
 
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Tmaque:
We come to God for various reasons. Most of the people who aren’t inclined to seek God at all, become inclined to do so when faced with their own mortality. I thinking facing death would make one incredibly sincere. No, they haven’t earned by their actions the right to be saved, and it’s not fair. And, really none of us have. We can’t sin against an infinite good and make up for it on our own. So, are we envious because God is generous? I think catholic-rcia is right on here.
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good answer
 
It is what I have learned by others in Christ over the last six years. It really hits as to the peace of Christ that we can all find in this short life. It is better to learn it at an early age, but it usually takes longer.

God Bless
 
****Paul said:i don’t know what you know about our church but we don’t teach what you are saying. we are indeed saved by grace as its thruogh the saviour that we recieve a remission of our sins. we believe just by say we believe is not enough we must be active in our faith by doing good works ect. so we believe in SALVATION= GRACE+WORKS. we believe you need to be truly repentant. claiming sorrow on your death bed after living an evil life will not save you.

Sara says:
Ok but what if you do not produce good works are you still saved.?****

Yes or No

Are you still guranteed final entrance into the kingdom of heaven.? Yes or No

Sara
 
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